1st & 2nd C writers who missed Christianity

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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MrMacSon
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Re: 1st & 2nd C writers who missed Christianity

Post by MrMacSon »

MrMacSon wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:04 pm The fact that the faith was supposed to have started after ~30 CE and it is asserted the faith was documented by Paul, and Matthew, Mark, Luke, +/- John in subsequent decades. Yet we don't hear much more until the end of the 2nd C.
Bernard Muller wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:25 am And you post-date all the canonical writings ...
That's a loaded statement.

It also ignores the fact several people are now dating the canonical writings in the mid 2nd century in relation to writings attributed to Marcion
  • Vinzent, Klinghardt, BeDuhn, Tyson, etc.

Bernard Muller wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:25 am ... as also the Didache, gospel of Thomas, epistle of Barnabas, 1Clement, Cerinthus, Papias, Ignatian letters, epistle of Polycarp, apologies of Aristides & Quadratus, Epistula Apostolorum, Basilides, Cerdo, Marcion, Valentinus, Justin Martyr's work, and more.
What I am proposing is to do more than lump all those texts into the same category as you do there.

You're being disingenuous in doing that. I do not 'post-date Ignatius, Marcion, and a few others there.

To say Basilides, Cerdo, and Valentinus a good evidence of belief in Jesus Christa as saviour is disingenuous. Papias may reflect pericopes more than texts.

Bernard Muller wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:25 am That's because you reject the pertinent passages in Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius and Pliny the Younger.
Most of those passages have significant doubt.

Papers by Ken Olson, Paul Hopper, and Feldman cast significant doubt on Antiquities 18 (the TF).

Hopper, P (2014) “A Narrative Anomaly in Josephus: Jewish Antiquities xviii:63,” in M Fludernik & D Jacob, eds., Linguistics and Literary Studies: Interfaces, Encounters, Transfers, de Gruyter; pp. 147-169. Available here viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1237

Olson, K (2013) A Eusebian Reading of the Testimonium Flavianum
Feldman, L (2012) 'On the authenticity of the “Testimonium Flavianum” attributed to Josephus', in: E. Carlebach and J. Schacter (ed), New Perspectives on Jewish Christian Relations, Brill; 13-30



A very recent recent paper casts doubt on Pliny the Younger (and reminds us of past doubts) -

Enrico Tuccinardi (2017) 'An application of a profile-based method for authorship verification: Investigating the authenticity of Pliny the Younger's letter to Trajan concerning the Christians'. Digital Scholarship in the Humanities, 32(2) 1 June 2017; pp 435–447.
  • Abstract
    Pliny the Younger's letter to Trajan regarding the Christians is a crucial subject for the studies on early Christianity. A serious quarrel among scholars concerning its genuineness arose between the end of the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th; per contra, Plinian authorship has not been seriously questioned in the last few decades. After analysing various kinds of internal and external evidence in favour of and against the authenticity of the letter, a modern stylometric method is applied in order to examine whether internal linguistic evidence allows one to definitely settle the debate.The findings of this analysis tend to contradict received opinion among modern scholars, affirming the authenticity of Pliny’s letter, and suggest instead the presence of large amounts of interpolation inside the text of the letter, since its stylistic behaviour appears highly different from that of the rest of Book X.
    https://academic.oup.com/dsh/article-ab ... method-for
Last edited by MrMacSon on Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1st & 2nd C writers who missed Christianity

Post by rakovsky »

Another interesting issue is that some of those writers could have mentioned Christianity, but in a negative way and so their writing about it didn't survive. A good example of this is Celsus' writing against Christianity, which survives in fragments due to Origen's repudiations, not because the work was directly preserved.

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Re: 1st & 2nd C writers who missed Christianity

Post by andrewcriddle »

MrMacSon wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:42 pm .............................................

A very recent recent paper casts doubt on Pliny the Younger (and reminds us of past doubts) -

Enrico Tuccinardi (2017) 'An application of a profile-based method for authorship verification: Investigating the authenticity of Pliny the Younger's letter to Trajan concerning the Christians'. Digital Scholarship in the Humanities, 32(2) 1 June 2017; pp 435–447.
  • Abstract
    Pliny the Younger's letter to Trajan regarding the Christians is a crucial subject for the studies on early Christianity. A serious quarrel among scholars concerning its genuineness arose between the end of the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th; per contra, Plinian authorship has not been seriously questioned in the last few decades. After analysing various kinds of internal and external evidence in favour of and against the authenticity of the letter, a modern stylometric method is applied in order to examine whether internal linguistic evidence allows one to definitely settle the debate.The findings of this analysis tend to contradict received opinion among modern scholars, affirming the authenticity of Pliny’s letter, and suggest instead the presence of large amounts of interpolation inside the text of the letter, since its stylistic behaviour appears highly different from that of the rest of Book X.
    https://academic.oup.com/dsh/article-ab ... method-for
It is an interesting article.

I have two reservations. Firstly, the method is very much a black box, one has no qualitative feel of what makes the letter appear stylistically unusual, and the statistical significance of the results is not overwhelming.
Secondly, the letter about the Christians is considerably longer than any of the other letters and what the test does is compare the letter to samples made up of several letters put together. These may well not be fully comparable.

(It has previously been suggested that the length of Pliny's letter about the Christians is in itself a problem, raising doubts about authenticity, but this may be a separate issue.)

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Re: 1st & 2nd C writers who missed Christianity

Post by Giuseppe »

The silence of Paul about Jesus is surely the more embarrassing and unexpected.

Missing in Paul is not only any reference to a historical Jesus, but even the same things that should be there if only there was a historical Jesus behind the Jesus of Paul.

It is like if in a picture of ourselves we could not see our (both general and particular) profile at all.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Re: 1st & 2nd C writers who missed Christianity

Post by Peter Kirby »

MrMacSon wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:04 pm Florus (c. 70 - c. 140 ad?) 'Military history of Rome to Augustus' in 2 books

Granius Licinianus (fl. 120 ad?) History of Rome

Appian of Alexandria (c. 95 - c.165ad)
It may be worth underscoring here the fact that many Roman writers were happily missing Christianity well into the second and third centuries. These three references scratch the surface. For proof, just get any list of (second and third century) Roman writers and cross off any that are commonly cited as attesting Christianity (that lot is well-known in this forum).
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Re: 1st & 2nd C writers who missed Christianity

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Peter Kirby wrote: Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:19 pm
MrMacSon wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:04 pm Florus (c. 70 - c. 140 ad?) 'Military history of Rome to Augustus' in 2 books

Granius Licinianus (fl. 120 ad?) History of Rome

Appian of Alexandria (c. 95 - c.165ad)
It may be worth underscoring here the fact that many Roman writers were happily missing Christianity well into the second and third centuries. These three references scratch the surface. For proof, just get any list of (second and third century) Roman writers and cross off any that are commonly cited as attesting Christianity (that lot is well-known in this forum).
A quick check for authors writing in Latin (plausibly) in the third century yields at least the following: Censorinus, Cornelius Labeo, Cruquianus, Marius Maximus, Quintus Gargilius Martialis, Nemesianus, Pomponius Porphyrion, Aquila Romanus, Serenus Sammonicus, Hermogenian, Pseudo-Hyginus ( De Munitionibus Castrorum), Dionysius Cato ( Distichs of Cato), Gregorius ( Codex Gregorianus). I feel certain there are more; my search methods were not very efficient.
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Re: 1st & 2nd C writers who missed Christianity

Post by Kapyong »

Gday all,

I recently tried to make sense of all these silences by attempting to rate the writers according to characteristics which would increase the likelyhood of a mention of Jesus Christ :
  • the book has a relevant Subject (S or s)
  • the book is Contemporary (C or c)
  • the work is Local (L or l)
  • the book is Big with lots of names etc. (B or b)
  • the book is a Christian work (X)
A capital letter is a strong reason, lower-case less so. The 'X' is for a few Christian books which oddly omit Jesus.

I've divided the writers into one-third century chunks, and present one chunk per post below.
Please don't reply until all seven chunks are posted. :)

Kapyong
Last edited by Kapyong on Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1st & 2nd C writers who missed Christianity

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Writers Contemporary With The Alleged Jesus

Philo (20 BCE - 50 CE) = SClB

Philo Judaeus wrote very many books about Jewish religion and history, and would surely have mentioned Jesus Christ or Christians had he known of them.
  • Philo was contemporary with Jesus and Paul,
  • he visited Jerusalem and had family there,
  • he developed the concept of the Logos and the Holy Spirit,
  • he was considered a Christian by some later Christians,
  • he wrote a great deal about related times and peoples and issues,
  • including critical commentary on Pilate.

Seneca The Younger (4 BCE - 65 CE) = sCB

Lucius Annaeus Seneca wrote many philosophic and satirical books and letters in Rome. He wrote a great deal on many subjects and mentioned many people. He was a Stoic, a school of thought considered sympathetic to Christian teachings. He wrote a large work On Superstition between 40 and 62 CE that covered all the sects and cults of Rome. In fact, early Christians seemed to have expected him to discuss Christianity - they forged letters between him and Paul. How else to explain these forgeries, except as Christian responses to a surprising void in Seneca's writings ?

Pliny The Elder (23 - 79) = SCB

Gaius Plinius Secundus wrote a large Natural History in Rome c.70CE following on from Bassus (from 31 CE) Pliny wrote a great deal - his Natural History mentions hundreds of people, major & minor - writers, leaders, poets, artists - often with as much reason as mentioning Jesus. (Of course like many other writers he talks about astronomy too, but never mentions the Star of Bethlehem or the darkness.) It is quite likely for this prolific writer to have mentioned Jesus or the Gospels events - if they had happened.

Petronius (c. 27 - 66) = CB

Gaius Petronius Arbiter or Titus Petronius wrote a large novel in Rome (a bawdy drama) the Satyricon c.60. Petronius mentions all sorts of people and events in this large work, including :
  • a crucifixion !
  • a scene where guards are posted to stop a corpse being stolen,
  • a tomb scene of someone mistaking a person for a supernatural vision,
  • gods such as Bacchus and Ceres,
  • writers such as Sophocles and Euripides and Epicurus,
  • books such as the Illiad,
  • Romans such as Cato and Pompey,
  • people such as Hannibal, and the Governor of Ephesus,
  • female charioteers, slaves, merchants, Arabs, lawyers
  • baths, shipwrecks, meals...

This large work, cover many topics, including topics related to the Jesus e.g. a crucifixion, and it was written just as Peter and Paul had come to Rome, allegedly.

Lucius Junius Moderatus Columella (4 - c.70) = Cb

Columella wrote several works in Rome, some survives, e.g. his large book on agriculture Res Rustica.

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Re: 1st & 2nd C writers who missed Christianity

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Mid 1st C. (34 - 66)

Persius (34 - 62) = scb
Aulus Persius Flaccus wrote six fairly long satires in Rome in the mid 1st century, of a rather philosophic nature.

Lucan (39 - 65) = cB
Marcus Annaeus Lucanus wrote the Pharsalia (Civil War) in Rome in mid 1st century. In this large poem he mentions some events from later times, and he covers many different issues and people in passing. He :
  • mentions an event from 56 CE,
  • refers to places as far afield as Sicily and Kent,
  • referred to Stoic religious beliefs about the end of the world, refers to many books and myths and persons and events not part of the main story.

Pomponius Mela (c.43) = c
He wrote a geography which includes the region.

Cornutus (c.60) = sc
Lucius Annaeus Cornutus wrote a variety of works in Rome - satires, philosophy, mythology. Some survive.

Hero of Alexandria (c.10 - c.70) = ClB
Hero(n) of Alexandria wrote many technical works, including astronomy in mid 1st C.

Quintus Curtus Rufus (mid 1st C.) = CB
Roman Rufus wrote a large history of Alexander, most still extant.

Scribonius Largus (mid 1st C.) = Cb
Wrote on medicine in Rome, much survives.

Rufus of Ephesus (mid 1st C.) = CLB
He wrote many works, mostly on medicine, much survives.

Cleopatra the Physician (mid 1st C.) = Cl
Some of her work survives.

Asconius Pedianus (mid 1st C.) = C
A Roman who wrote a variety of books, some survives.

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Re: 1st & 2nd C writers who missed Christianity

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Late 1st C. (67 - 99)

Plutarch (c. 46 CE - 120 CE) = ScB
Plutarch of Chaeronea wrote many works on history and philosophy in Rome and Boetia in about 90-120.
  • Plutarch wrote about influential Roman figures, including some contemporary to Jesus,
  • Plutarch wrote on oracles (prophesies),
  • Plutarch wrote on moral, spiritual and religious issues.
Justus of Tiberias (late 1st C.) = ScL
Justus of Tiberias wrote a History of Jewish Leaders in Galilee in late 1st century. Photius read Justus in the 8th century and noted that he did not mention anything: "He (Justus of Tiberias) makes not one mention of Jesus, of what happened to him, or of the wonderful works that he did."

Juvenal (late 1st C. - early 2nd C.) = scb
Decimus Junius Juvenalis wrote sixteen satires in Rome in early 2nd century without mentioning Jesus or Christians, even though later Roman satirists like Lucian did ridicule Christians (as gullible, easily lead fools) in mid 2nd century.

Pliny the Younger (61 - c.113) = sclB
Gaius Plinius Caecilius Secundus was a prolific Roman author on many subjects.

Damis (mid 1st C. - early 2nd C.) = Sclb
Damis apparently wrote most of what we know about Apollonius of Tyana who was a philosopher and mystic exactly contemporary with Jesus, and who was rather similar to Jesus - enough for some authors to argue they were one and the same person. If Damis / Apollonius had known of Jesus, he could have easily have been mentioned as a competitor.

Martial (40 - c.103) = scB
Marcus Valerius Martialus wrote satires in Rome in late 1st century - a large body of poems about all sorts of things. He mentions many people, places, stories and issues - major and minor, within and without Rome, such as :
  • Stoic suffering of discomfort and death,
  • virgin's blood,
  • Roman funerary practices,
  • the way accused men look in court,
  • Roman soldiers mocking their leaders,
  • anointing the body with oil,
  • Molorchus the good shepherd,
  • Tutilius a minor rhetorician, Nestor the wise,
  • the (ugly) Temple of Jupiter,
Quintilian (c.35 - c.100) = scb
Marcus Fabius Quintilianus, wrote the Education of an Orator in Rome in late 1st century. One of the things Jesus was allegedly noted for was his public speeches - e.g. the Sermon on the Mount, which supposedly drew and influenced large crowds.

Josephus (c.75-99) = scLb
Josephus wrote a large work The Jewish War about the war with the Romans, and the Antiquities of the Jews about Jewish history.

Erotianus (1st C.) = c
A Greek grammarian and/or physician, some of his work survives.

Aristocles (1st C.) = sc
Aristocles of Messene wrote On Philosophy, late 1st century.

Musonius Rufus (1st C.) = sc
C. Musonius Rufus' views on Stoic philosophy in Rome were collected in mid 1st century, some survive.

Nicomachus of Gerasa (1st C.) = clb
He wrote several books, mostly mathematics, much survives.

Soranus of Ephesus (1st C.) = cl
Soranus was a physician, some of his work survives.

Pedanius Dioscorides (mid 1st C.) = clb
Wrote a large book on herbs and medicine in Turkey, still extant.

Nicarchus (1st C.) = cl
Nicarchus wrote poems in Alexandria, 1st C.

Gaius Valerius Flaccus (late 1st C.) = c
A poet in Rome c.90, some of his work remains.

Silius Italicus (1st C.) = cB
A Roman who wrote a large epic poem about the Punic Wars which survives.

Aretaeus of Cappadocia (1st C.) = cl
Aretaeus was a first century physician and author. Some of his work survives.

Statius the Younger (c.45 - c.96) = cB
Publius Papinius Statius wrote numerous minor and epic poems (e.g. Ode to Sleep and the Thebaid).

Sextus Julius Frontinus (late 1st C.) = c
Senator Frontinus wrote various books in Rome, a few survive.

Phaedrus (1st C.) = scb
Phaedrus wrote fables mid 1st century, and many survive.

Aelius Theon (1st C.) = sclb
Aelius Theon was an Alexandrian sophist and author of a collection of preliminary exercises (progymnasmata) for the training of orators.

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