1st & 2nd C writers who missed Christianity

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
StephenGoranson
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Re: 1st & 2nd C writers who missed Christianity

Post by StephenGoranson »

Kapyong, do you claim that your 18 listed referencers to Mani contain "historical markers like a date or a place etc." each of which more reliable than Paul?
Bernard Muller
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Re: 1st & 2nd C writers who missed Christianity

Post by Bernard Muller »

I looked for a comparand who :

started a new sect,
was somewhat near Jesus Christ in time,
had an easily searchable name.
Mani was highly successful during his (long) public life. His religion was competing against Christianity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mani_(prophet)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manichaeism
So it is not surprising he would attract a lot of attention early on.
As for Jesus, with a short public life, and with Christianity starting slowly after his death, with the converts being few in number for many decades, he was unlikely to get external evidence from non-Christian sources.

Cordially, Bernard
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Bernard Muller
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Re: 1st & 2nd C writers who missed Christianity

Post by Bernard Muller »

Minucius Felix c.150 = SBX
Minucius Felix wrote a book Octavius which defends Christian beliefs, but does not mention Jesus even once.
The author (160-250) however defended somebody who was crucified, important for Christians, as not being a criminal & a mortal, but believed to be God. (Octavius 29).
Actually, it is obvious that around this time, despite the fact the gospels were known, many apologists avoided to get involved in Jesus (seen through the gospels) and his apparent legends. This embarrassing gospels Jesus is evidenced in 2 Peter, 1 Timothy and Tertullian & Tatian's writings: http://historical-jesus.info/gospels.html

They preferred a more refined religion along platonic lines, without the gospels Jesus with his crucifixion and mythology, seen as a deterrent for making converts.
Or
their letters were just tracts in order to attract potential converts or "students", where the good stuff would be put forward, with the more bothersome stuff to be administered later, when the subject was getting "hooked".

Theophilus of Antioch (~ 200) even denied the "Christ" in "Christians":
And about your laughing at me and calling me "Christian," you know not what you are saying. First, because that which is anointed is sweet and serviceable, and far from contemptible. For what ship can be serviceable and seaworthy, unless it be first caulked [anointed]? Or what castle or house is beautiful and serviceable when it has not been anointed? And what man, when he enters into this life or into the gymnasium, is not anointed with oil? And what work has either ornament or beauty unless it be anointed and burnished? Then the air and all that is under heaven is in a certain sort anointed by light and spirit; and are you unwilling to be anointed with the oil of God? Wherefore we are called Christians on this account, because we are anointed with the oil of God.
Book I, XII

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed
pavurcn
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Re: 1st & 2nd C writers who missed Christianity

Post by pavurcn »

I wonder how many of the cited writers mentioned the Mithras cult. That might be an illuminating statistic.
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Kapyong
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Re: 1st & 2nd C writers who missed Christianity

Post by Kapyong »

Gday all :)

Here is a shameless plug for my most recent list of who Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda (mentioned Jesus), which Vridar mentioned recently. With the rating system.

It starts back on page 3 :
viewtopic.php?p=75442#p75442

The current version is maintained here :
Early Writers Who Could Have Mentioned Jesus

Kapyong
Last edited by Kapyong on Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1st & 2nd C writers who missed Christianity

Post by Kapyong »

Gday StephenGoranson,
whoops, sorry I missed this -
StephenGoranson wrote: Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:56 am Kapyong, do you claim that your 18 listed referencers to Mani contain "historical markers like a date or a place etc." each of which more reliable than Paul?
No, I don't claim that.
It's just a straight comparison of any mentions.

Kapyong
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Re: 1st & 2nd C writers who missed Christianity

Post by Kapyong »

Gday pavurcb and all :)
pavurcn wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:19 amI wonder how many of the cited writers mentioned the Mithras cult. That might be an illuminating statistic.
Well, here is the raw list of writers who mention Mithras :
  • Herodotus
  • Xenophon
  • Strabo
  • Plutarch
  • Justin Martyr
  • Lucian of Samosata
  • Celsus
  • Claudian
  • Julian
  • Eunapius
  • Dio Cassius
Kapyong
andrewcriddle
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Re: 1st & 2nd C writers who missed Christianity

Post by andrewcriddle »

Kapyong wrote: Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:24 pm Gday pavurcb and all :)
pavurcn wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:19 amI wonder how many of the cited writers mentioned the Mithras cult. That might be an illuminating statistic.
Well, here is the raw list of writers who mention Mithras :
  • Herodotus
  • Xenophon
  • Strabo
  • Plutarch
  • Justin Martyr
  • Lucian of Samosata
  • Celsus
  • Claudian
  • Julian
  • Eunapius
  • Dio Cassius
Kapyong
You should probably distinguish between mentions of the Persian god Mithras and mentions of the religion of Mithraism. (The earliest mention of Mithraism is probably Statius in the Thebaid.)

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Re: 1st & 2nd C writers who missed Christianity

Post by Kapyong »

Gday andrewcriddle :)

andrewcriddle wrote: Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:02 pm You should probably distinguish between mentions of the Persian god Mithras and mentions of the religion of Mithraism. (The earliest mention of Mithraism is probably Statius in the Thebaid.)
Andrew Criddle
Actually, there seems to be little of value there in terms of historicity like say, Mani. Even the direct mentions of Mithras are usually in a scene in the heavens with other gods. Nothing earthly. (Has the confusing overlap between Persian and Roman Mithra(s) become clearer ?)

Did any followers ever claim to have the actual rock from which Mithras was born ?

The black rock they brought to Rome to save them from Hannibal was called the Great Mother - maybe that was his mum ? ;)

Funny thing about Mithras -
the Jesus Myth argument has spun off parallelomaniac lists of ancient gods who were also born of a virgin. Mithras is always on that list, and now it is widely reported that he was virgin-born. Kersey Graves said it about Persian Mithras, I'm sure AcharyaS repeated it, among many others.

Wikipedia says :
wikipedia wrote:It is said that the birth of Mithras was a virgin birth, like that of Jesus. David Ulansey speculates that this was a belief derived from the Perseus myths, which held he was born from an underground cavern.
I'll fix it, but doubt it will last.

Kapyong
PS. Sceptics note - that Magna Deorum Mater Idaeai did save Rome from Hannibal, remember ? :) Pity about the dozens of legions, towns, and generals that it didn't :(
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Re: 1st & 2nd C writers who missed Christianity

Post by Secret Alias »

Ulansey was obviously influenced by Justin Martyr.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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