Jesus forgives even the Romans and the demons...

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Giuseppe
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Jesus forgives even the Romans and the demons...

Post by Giuseppe »

The following passage is found in Marcion:
And every one, who shall speak a word against the Son of man,
it shall be forgiven him:
but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Spirit
it shall not be forgiven.
(Luke 12:10)


The question arises: does Jesus forgive even the demons?

The answer is a strong YES:

26 And they sailed down to the country of the Gadarenes,
which is over against Galilee.
27 And when he went forth to land,
there met him out of the city a certain man,
which had demons long time, and wore no cloke,
neither abode in a house,
but among the tombs.
28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him,
and with a loud voice said,
What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high?
I beseech thee, torment me not.
29 (For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man.
For often times it had caught him: and he was kept guarded and bound
with chains and in fetters; and he brake the bands asunder,
and was driven of the demon into the deserts).
30 And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name?
And he said, Legion: because many demons were entered into him.
31 And they besought him that he would not command them
to go out into the abyss
.
32 And there was there an herd of many swine feeding on the mountain:
and they besought him that he would allow them to enter into them.
And he allowed them.

33 Then went the demons out of the man, and entered into the swine:
and the herd ran violently down the steep place into the lake,
and were choked.
34 When they that fed them saw what was done, they fled,
and went and told it in the city and in the country.
35 Then they went out to see what was done; and came to Jesus,
and found the man, out of whom the demons were departed,
sitting at the feet of Jesus, clothed, and in his right mind:
and they were afraid.
36 They also which saw it told them by what means
he that was possessed of the demons was saved.
37 Then the whole multitude of the country of the Gadarenes round about
asked him to depart from them; for they were holden with great fear:
and he entered into the ship, and returned back again.
38 Now the man, from whom the demons were departed,
besought him that he might be with him:
but Jesus sent him away, saying,
39 Return to thine own house,
and recount how great things God hath done unto thee.
And he went his way, publishing throughout the whole city
how great things Jesus had done unto him.
(Luke 8:26-39)

Note that the demons have fear to be thrown in the Abyss. According to the words of Jesus himself, their fear is absolutely justified:
But I will show you whom ye shall fear:
Fear him, which after he hath killed
hath authority to cast into Gehenna;
yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
(Luke 12:5)



So Couchoud (note the references to Origen so much loved by Secret Alias :notworthy: ) :

Jesus “indubitably means the creator.... He condemns the severity of the creator who must slay in Gehenna” (T. iv. 28). The god of the Jews said himself: “I kill” (Deut. xxxii. 39). “This passage is constantly brought to our notice with the remark, You see how savage and inhuman is the god of the law” (Origen, Hom. in Ierem., i. 16). He it is who “rages” (T. ii. 13). He it is, then, who is to be feared. “The judge god desires to be feared, for his are the objects of fear, anger, cruelty, judgments, vengeance, condemnation” (T. iv. 8). “The good god is not to be feared” (T. iv. 8). “The Marcionites boast that they do not fear their god at all; the evil god is to be feared, they say, but the good god is to be loved” (T. i. 27).
(Creation of Christ, p. 408)

But Jesus for Marcion is not the Christ of the Creator. Therefore, accordingly, Jesus should forgive EVEN the demons.
He allowed that the demons escape to the ''herd of many swine''.

But a mistake arises: for pure coincidence, the swine (possessed by demons) go really into the lake, that may allegorize very well the Abyss of the Creator. At least in the eyes of the people of the place.

These people fall in the mistake of believing that Jesus deceived very cruelly the demons, by allowing them only apparently (therefore: falsely) a way of escape but really betraying them.

In short, they believe wrongly that Jesus acts as a cruel deceiver (as the same Creator).

Therefore there is no wonder that they ''asked him to depart from them; for they were holden with great fear''.

Therefore Couchoud is very right in saying so:

The confessor from whom a word against Jesus shall have been torn will be pardoned; Peter was guilty of this crime (xxii. 57). But if he has blasphemed against the Spirit which inspires him (verse 12), he will not be pardoned. The Romans made accused Christians utter curses on Christ (Pliny, Letters, x. 96). The Jews probably required them to avow that they were inspired by an evil spirit (cf. John vii. 20; viii. 48 and 52).

(p. 408)

The reference to Pliny allows me to date all the Gospels at least AFTER the 115 CE.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: Jesus forgives even the Romans and the demons...

Post by Giuseppe »

Therefore the irony of the real author of Mcn (i.e., the irony of the man Marcion of Sinope) is that it was only by pure coincidence that the swine fall into the lake.

Or alternatively, if there was a sort of provvidence behind the event, it was only the will of the Creator, as proof of the his anger against the Demons, but not a deliberate will of Jesus son of the Alien God (i.e. unable to punish).

Without doubt, the proto-catholic Luke interpreted the fall of the swine into the lake as an event wanted by the same Jesus. But so there is no more a possible explanation for the irrational fear of the people. Usually, you love the your exorcist, and not fear him.

This seems a strong argument supporting the Marcionite priority over the same Mark.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: Jesus forgives even the Romans and the demons...

Post by Giuseppe »

Note that prof Klinghardt deluded very me when in an email, he answered:

 
For an interpretation of the Gerasene episode (though not in the Markan version) I should hint to my article in ZNW 98 (2007), 28-48.
See for example:
http://commonweb.unifr.ch/artsdean/pub/ ... 171210.pdf

...where there is clearly (even if I don't read German) the ''easy'' appeal to a (a priori deluding) historicist explanation behind the episode.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: Jesus forgives even the Romans and the demons...

Post by Giuseppe »

An audacious interpretation is that the swine represent the same creator (!). Therefore the kindness shown by Jesus towards the demons is put in antithesis with the anger of the creator against the demons. In this case the real irony is that the swine (= the creator) lead to the Abyss the demons -- confirming the lack of pity by the creator - and not the contrary (as one would expect given that usually the spiritual possessor leads the possessed thing and not the contrary).

Surely the demons possessed the man (the Pagan).

But now the contrary happens: the demons were posseded by the swine (the creator).
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: Jesus forgives even the Romans and the demons...

Post by Giuseppe »

Note that my interpretation above explains finally why the demons possessing the man of Gerasa were called ''LEGION''. They were the Romans, forgiven by Jesus (as blasphemers only of the his name) but not forgiven by the god of the Jews as idolatrous (and therefore punised by the ''swine'').
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: Jesus forgives even the Romans and the demons...

Post by Giuseppe »

And now we know why the demons are called ''LEGION''.

They are the Romans


So Pliny to Trajan:
Those who denied that they were or had been Christians, when they invoked the gods in words dictated by me, offered prayer with incense and wine to your image, which I had ordered to be brought for this purpose together with statues of the gods, and moreover cursed Christ--none of which those who are really Christians, it is said, can be forced to do--these I thought should be discharged. Others named by the informer declared that they were Christians, but then denied it, asserting that they had been but had ceased to be, some three years before, others many years, some as much as twenty-five years. They all worshipped your image and the statues of the gods, and cursed Christ.
Therefore the Pagan posseded by demons allegorizes the idolatrous Roman people (as Pliny) persecutor of the Christians.

Jesus forgives the Romans for their blasphemy against Christ differently from the Demiurge.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: Jesus forgives even the Romans and the demons...

Post by Giuseppe »

It's interesting that Porphyry recognized a moral inconsistency by Jesus (under the assumption that it was his divine providence - or divine prediction - to lead the swine into the lake). Porphyry notes also that Jesus was too much gentle with the demons, by allowing them to escape into the swine.
49. Macarius, Apocriticus III: 4: 
And if we would speak of this record likewise, it will appear to be really a piece of knavish nonsense, since Matthew says that two demons from the tombs met with Christ, and then that in fear of Him they went into the swine, and many were killed. But Mark did not shrink from making up an enormous number of swine, for he puts it thus: "He said unto him, Go forth, thou unclean spirit, from the man. And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, Many. And he besought him that he would not cast him out of the country. And there was there a herd of swine feeding. And the demons besought him that he would suffer them to depart into the swine. And when they had departed into the swine, they rushed down the steep into the sea, about two thousand, and were choked; and they that fed them fled !" (Mark v. 8, etc.). What a myth ! What humbug ! What flat mockery ! A herd of two thousand swine ran into the sea, and were choked and perished!
And when one hears how the demons besought Him that they might not be sent into the abyss, and how Christ was prevailed on and did not do so, but sent them into the swine, will not one say : "Alas, what ignorance ! Alas, what foolish knavery, that He should take account of murderous spirits, which were working much harm in the world, and that He should grant them what they wished." What the demons wished was to dance through life, and make the world a perpetual plaything. They wanted to stir up the sea, and fill the world's whole theatre with sorrow. They wanted to trouble the elements by their disturbance, and to crush the whole creation by their hurtfulness. So at all events it was not right that, instead of casting these originators of evil, who had treated mankind so ill, into that region of the abyss which they prayed to be delivered from, He should be softened by their entreaty and suffer them to work another calamity.
If the incident is really true, and not a fiction (as we explain it), Christ's saying convicts Him of much baseness, that He should drive the demons from one man, and send them into helpless swine; also that He should terrify with panic those who kept them, making them fly breathless and excited, and agitate the city with the disturbance which resulted. For was it not just to heal the harm not merely of one man or two or three or thirteen, but of everybody, especially as it was for this purpose that He was testified to have come into this life? But to merely loose one man from bonds which were invisible, and to inflict similar bonds upon others; to free certain men happily from their fears, but to surround others with fears without reason---this should rightfully be called not right action but rascality.
And again, in taking account of enemies and allowing them to take up their abode in another place and dwell there, He is acting like a king who ruins the region that is subject to him. For the latter, being unable to drive the barbarians out of every country, sends them from one place to another to abide, delivering one country from the evil and handing another over to it. If therefore Christ in like manner, unable to drive the demon from His borders, sent him into the herd of swine, he does indeed work something racticed which cau catch the ear, but it is also full of the suspicion of baseness. For when a right-thinking man hears this, he passes a judgment at once, forms his opinion on the narrative, and gives his vote in accordance with the matter. This is the way he will speak : "If he does not free from hurt everything beneath the sun, but pursues those that do the harm into different countries, and if he takes care of some, but has no heed of others, it is not safe to flee to this man and be saved. For he who is saved spoils the condition of him who is not, while he who is not saved becomes the accuser of him who is. Wherefore, according to my judgment, the record contained in this narrative is a fiction."
Once more, if you regard it as not fiction, but bearing some relation to truth, there is really plenty to laugh at for those who like to open their mouths. For come now, here is a point we must carefully inquire into : how was it that so large a herd of swine was being kept at that time in the land of Judsea, seeing that they were to the Jews from the beginning the most unclean and hated form of beast? And, again, how were all those swine choked, when it was a lake and not a deep sea? It may be left to babes to make a decision about all this."
So the paradox for Porphyry is that Jesus is both too much gentle (by making escape the demons) and too much cruel (by killing innocent swine). He doesn't know which accusation is to be made firstly against Jesus, if one of excessive kindness (towards demons) or one of excessive cruelty (towards swine).

But if the swine ''were to the Jews from the beginning the most unclean and hated form of beast'' then in Mcn they can only be allegory of :

1) the Demiurge himself
2) what is more hated by the Demiurge.

Under the hypothesis 2, then he is the Demiurge who sends both demons and swine into the lake. This may be a reference to Revelation's ''Lake of Fire'', but the problem with this interpretation is that there are only two actors on the hill (demons and swine) and not a third.

Under the hypothesis 1, the swine are symbol of the Demiurge. He hates a priori the cohabitation with the demons LEGION.

An interesting remark in this sense:
Readers know not whether the demons or the swine impelled this final action, but it’s certainly clear that one or both was not in fact “at home” with the other.
http://digitalcommons.csbsju.edu/cgi/vi ... t=obsculta

Therefore who provoked this collective suicide were the demons or the swine.
THe demons can't be because they had asked to Jesus just the swine as way of escape.
Thefore it is more probable that the swine are the final killers.

The demons are LEGION because they are the Pagan gods hated by the god of the Jews. The demiurge, allegorized by the swine, was not ''at home'' with the Pagan gods and therefore the suicide of the swine is a best option than cohabitation with them.

But in this way the suicidal rage of the swine is confused by the Gerasenes for the same anger of Jesus against the demons. Hence their fear of him.


the demiurge banned eating pork in its controlled religions:
10,6 Some say Sabaoth has the face of an ass; others, the face of a pig.  This, they say, is why is why he forbade the Jews to eat pork. He is the maker of heaven, earth, the heavens after him, and his own angels. (7) In departing this world the soul makes its way through these archons, but no < one > can get through them unless he is in full possession of this “knowledge”—or rather, this contemptibility—and escapes the archons and authorities because he is “filled.”
(Epiphanius, Panarion 26)
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: Jesus forgives even the Romans and the demons...

Post by Giuseppe »

Also from a graphical point of view, there is an antithesis ''up versus down'':
And there was there an herd of many swine feeding on the mountain:
and the herd ran violently down the steep place into the lake
That is, Jesus allows the demons to go up, while the swine oblige the demons to drown down.

There is no wonder since the swine are in the Antiquity the symbol of lower matter. And the matter is of the demiurge.

Therefore the Jesus of Marcion is gentle even with the demons, while the demiurge is not so gentle.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: Jesus forgives even the Romans and the demons...

Post by Giuseppe »

For example, Matthew 7:6 is often quoted as Gnostic despise of the lower matter:
"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.
It is curious that Matthew is surely embarrassed by the presence of only one demoniac and so he introduced two:
Matthew 8
28 When He came to the other side into the country of the Gadarenes, two men who were demon-possessed met Him as they were coming out of the tombs. They were so extremely violent that no one could pass by that way. 29 And they cried out, saying, “What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?” 30 Now there was a herd of many swine feeding at a distance from them. 31 The demons began to entreat Him, saying, “If You are going to cast us out, send us into the herd of swine.” 32 And He said to them, “Go!” And they came out and went into the swine, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the sea and perished in the waters. 33 The herdsmen ran away, and went to the city and reported everything, including what had happened to the demoniacs. 34 And behold, the whole city came out to meet Jesus; and when they saw Him, they implored Him to leave their region.
Why did Matthew introduce two demoniac? Because he was embarrassed by the fact that Jesus saved only one man to destroy so many swine in exchange. Two saved lifes may be more worthy of the sacrifice of an entire herd of many swine. Evidently Matthew was already more susceptible to the criticism of excessive cruelty addressed to Jesus by the readers.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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