Sure that the 'Lord of glory' is Jesus?

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Giuseppe
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Sure that the 'Lord of glory' is Jesus?

Post by Giuseppe »

A thread highly speculative, but I try equally :D

1 Corinthians 2:6-8
6 Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; 7 but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; 8 the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;
Who is the ''God's wisdow''?
But to those called by God to salvation, both Jews and Gentiles, Christ is the power of ... both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God...
(1 Corinthians 1:24)

Prove to replace ''Christ'' where ''wisdow'' occurs in 1 Cor 2:6-8 :
6 Yet we do speak Christ among those who are mature; a Christ, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; 7 but we speak Christ in a mystery, the hidden Christ which God predestined before the ages to our glory; 8 the Christ which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood Christ they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;
Read in this new light, it seems that for Paul, Christ never existed in this age and was never a ruler of this age. nor was known by them. Just for this reason, the rulers of this age have crucified the ''Lord of Glory''. If they had known Christ, they would have not crucified ''the Lord of Glory''.

Who was this ''Lord of Glory'' ? Another ''Lord'' distinct from Christ? God himself? Was he just the being who was crucified instead of Christ?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
John2
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Re: Sure that the 'Lord of glory' is Jesus?

Post by John2 »

I'll take a stab at this. Boyarin has persuaded me that Jewish Christians were binitarians, based on Daniel's divine/angelic "one like a son of man," so I don't think there was much difference between God and Jesus in early Christianity, and "the Lord" seems to be used interchangeably between the two, and in Revelation both God and Jesus say that they are "the Alpha and the Omega":

Rev. 1:8:
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."


Rev. 21:5-7:
He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children.
Rev. 22:12-20:
Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End ... I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches ... He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
And Paul says in 1 Cor.
... and [the Israelites] drank the same spiritual drink [in the wilderness]; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
and Php. 2:5-8:
...Christ Jesus, who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man ...
and Andrew cited something from Irenaeus in another thread that caught my eye regarding this.
And still further does Luke say in reference to the Lord: "When the days of purification were accomplished, they brought Him up to Jerusalem, to present Him before the Lord, as it is written in the law of the Lord, That every male opening the womb shall be called holy to the Lord; and that they should offer a sacrifice, as it is said in the law of the Lord, a pair of turtle-doves, or two young pigeons: " in his own person most clearly calling Him Lord, who appointed the legal dispensation.
In this case Irenaeus appears to call both God and Jesus "the Lord," and I'm starting to think this is the situation in the Letter of James now too. Regarding the identity of "the Lord of glory" in 1 Cor. 2:8, James 2:1 refers to Jesus as "our glorious Lord Jesus Christ," and Boyarin argues that this "glory" of "the Lord" is based on the "glory" that was given to the "one like a son of man" in Dan. 7:14:
He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
This seems to be echoed in Mt. 25:31:
When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne.
and Rom. 16:27:
... to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ!
and 2 Pet. 1:17:
He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."
and 2 Pet. 3:18:
But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever!
and John 1:14:
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.


and John 11:4:
When he heard this, Jesus said, "This sickness will not end in death. No, it is for God's glory so that God's Son may be glorified through it."
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
davidbrainerd
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Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:37 pm

Re: Sure that the 'Lord of glory' is Jesus?

Post by davidbrainerd »

Giuseppe wrote: Sun Aug 06, 2017 5:43 am A thread highly speculative, but I try equally :D

1 Corinthians 2:6-8
6 Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; 7 but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; 8 the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;
Who is the ''God's wisdow''?
But to those called by God to salvation, both Jews and Gentiles, Christ is the power of ... both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God...
(1 Corinthians 1:24)

Prove to replace ''Christ'' where ''wisdow'' occurs in 1 Cor 2:6-8 :
6 Yet we do speak Christ among those who are mature; a Christ, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; 7 but we speak Christ in a mystery, the hidden Christ which God predestined before the ages to our glory; 8 the Christ which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood Christ they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;
Read in this new light, it seems that for Paul, Christ never existed in this age and was never a ruler of this age. nor was known by them. Just for this reason, the rulers of this age have crucified the ''Lord of Glory''. If they had known Christ, they would have not crucified ''the Lord of Glory''.

Who was this ''Lord of Glory'' ? Another ''Lord'' distinct from Christ? God himself? Was he just the being who was crucified instead of Christ?
Don't follow you. Just sounds like he's saying Christ was unknown to anyone but God before his incarnation. All this means is theories that Christ is Yahweh or the angel of the covenant etc. don't work with what Paul's saying here because the rulers of the age would know them.

Edit: and if you consider Yahweh a ruler of the age, then Paul is teaching the Marcionite "sudden Christ" (Tertullian AM 3.2 "Suddenly a Son, suddenly Sent, and suddenly Christ!") who was unannounced prior to his coming and unkown even by Yahweh. Its counter to the orthodox theory that Christ must be some great known personage known from the OT, a great angel or Yahweh himself.
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