Another academic mythicist: Paul McGrane

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Paul the Uncertain
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Re: Another academic mythicist: Paul McGrane

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neilgodfrey wrote: Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:36 pm That the first sentence should be thought to pose a problem for "dichotomizers" tells me that there has been very little agreement on understanding what the debate between "history" and "fiction" is actually about, including the very fundamental distinctions between data, information and evidence; between sources and events; between events and history.

The first sentence is not pointing to "history"; it points to "data" to be assessed like any other data that requires interpretation and analysis etc.
Well, that may be. It's a big debate, not just something between the two of us, so I would expect some different understandings, plural, among the participants.

As I parse the sentence which you pointed out, the only part about data was the final "including" clause, which introduced an example datum. That item was of interest (Vidal made a special point about it in the linked material), and mentioning a datum seemed appropriate having already mentioned Vidal's goals and methods. To mention a datum doesn't make the whole sentence about data.

Or is your objection that Vidal erred in how he relied on that bit of intelligence he got from his family? If that's it, then it would seem like a narrow disagreement.

If I may take the liberty of closing on-topic, Gore Vidal was an excellent example of a non-academic whose novels about the human past were valuable to many readers as (in the felicitous phrase of another poster) educated opinion. I have no idea whether or not Paul Steven McGrane approaches that level, but "non-academic" should not end the discussion of the merits of McGrane's presentation.
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Re: Another academic mythicist: Paul McGrane

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Secret Alias wrote: Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:10 pm I guess my question is - how do we separate myth from history with an event that (allegedly) took place seventy years ago? If we can't do this in the case of recent history and a well known witness how much more difficult for something ancient without discernible human attestation.
If we cannot separate myth from history we can't separate the two. History is full of myths. Decent historians don't explore questions if there is insufficient material to do so meaningfully. They tailor the questions according to what the evidence will allow them to explore. Hence questions addressed in ancient times are far broader as a rule than those that can and often are addressed by historians of modern times.
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Re: Another academic mythicist: Paul McGrane

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Paul the Uncertain wrote: Thu Aug 03, 2017 3:51 am If I may take the liberty of closing on-topic, Gore Vidal was an excellent example of a non-academic whose novels about the human past were valuable to many readers as (in the felicitous phrase of another poster) educated opinion. I have no idea whether or not Paul Steven McGrane approaches that level, but "non-academic" should not end the discussion of the merits of McGrane's presentation.
Sorry but I simply don't understand the point being made here or what it has to do re any dichotomy between history and fiction.

I have tried at different times to try to understand where you are coming from but I think I'm further from that goal than ever.
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Secret Alias
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Re: Another academic mythicist: Paul McGrane

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Hence questions addressed in ancient times are far broader as a rule than those that can and often are addressed by historians of modern times
But if our sources couldn't make the distinction how do we hope to do so? Is it any different that determining whether Hercules was a historical person or not? Or Theseus?
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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Re: Another academic mythicist: Paul McGrane

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Neil
I have tried at different times to try to understand where you are coming from but I think I'm further from that goal than ever.
Where I came from was:

- Dr McGrane is not a career academic, although his doctorate from Oxford is earned and his subject area is potentially relevant to his opinion on the Jesus question.

- I understand why the OP thought it would be neat if McGrane had been a career academic. OK, that didn't pan out. That doesn't necessarily lessen the value of McGrane's work, it just makes it less neat-oh.

- The reviewer erred in identifying McGrane as an "Oxford University academic." Nevertheless, her credentials as a historical novelist may reasonably impart some weight to her opinion about the merits of McGrane's work of history. There is no hard wall between history and historical fiction, after all, and both are, at their best, educated opinion (IMO).

Hope that helps.
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Re: Another academic mythicist: Paul McGrane

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And to make clear, I am asking to what degree can we get beyond a vague 'maybe.' Is it possible to saying ANYTHING with any degree of certainty?
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Another academic mythicist: Paul McGrane

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Secret Alias wrote: Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:51 am
But if our sources couldn't make the distinction how do we hope to do so?
We can't.

Secret Alias wrote: Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:51 am Is it any different that determining whether Hercules was a historical person or not? Or Theseus?
Yes. Quite different. Just compare the sources we have for Hercules and Theseus with the sources you have described pertaining to your ancestor - or the sources for him compared with the sources for the Holocaust. Very different.
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Re: Another academic mythicist: Paul McGrane

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Secret Alias wrote: Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:13 am And to make clear, I am asking to what degree can we get beyond a vague 'maybe.' Is it possible to saying ANYTHING with any degree of certainty?
In theory, no. In theory there is always room for doubt. In mathematics absurd propositions are given positive probability numbers like 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 for sake of theoretical argument.

In real life, yes. We don't doubt that Trump is the president of the US or that Churchill and Hitler were heads of Britain and Germany in the early 1940s or that the Bastille was stormed 14 July 1789 etc.

And in real life many things really do have to be relegated to the "don't know" basket. Some people can't handle that sort of uncertainty.
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