Reconstructing the Proto-(Papias Based)Text for Adversus Haereses 3

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Secret Alias
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Reconstructing the Proto-(Papias Based)Text for Adversus Haereses 3

Post by Secret Alias »

As a purely intellectual exercise I have wondered about a ur-text to Adversus Haereses 3 related to the tradition of Papias in another thread which looked like this:
1.1.1 WE have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.(2) For it is unlawful to assert that they preached before they possessed "perfect knowledge," as some do even venture to say, boasting themselves as improvers of the apostles. For, after our Lord rose from the dead, [the apostles] were invested with power from on high when the Holy Spirit came down [upon them], were filled from all [His gifts], and had perfect knowledge: they departed to the ends of the earth, preaching the glad tidings of the good things [sent] from God to us, and proclaiming the peace of heaven to men, who indeed do all equally and individually possess the Gospel of God. Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect, while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, and laying the foundations of the Church. After their departure, Mark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, did also hand down to us in writing what had been preached by Peter ...
1.2.1 viva voce isn't as important as the Scriptures to determine the truth
1.3.1 appeal to Hegesippus's Roman apostolic succession list/Polycarp more reliable than the heretics
1.4.1 the preserved scriptures are like money in a bank/the barbarians don't need scriptures to know the truth
1.5.1 "the tradition from the apostles does thus exist in the Church, and is permanent among us, let us revert to the Scriptural proof furnished by those apostles who did also write the Gospel" to know there is one God not two
1.6.1 the Father can be called Lord/the Son can be called God/Moses met both Father and Son
1.7.1 2 Corinthians 4:5 "In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them that believe not" cannot be used to argue for two powers
1.8.1 Matthew 6:14 "You can't have two masters" cannot be used to argue for two powers
1.9.1 This, therefore, having been clearly demonstrated here (and it shall yet be so still more clearly), that neither the prophets, nor the apostles, nor the Lord Christ in His own person, did acknowledge any other Lord or God, but the God and Lord supreme: the prophets and the apostles confessing the Father and the Son; but naming no other as God, and confessing no other as Lord: and the Lord Himself handing down to His disciples, that He, the Father, is the only God and Lord, who alone is God and ruler of all; -- it is incumbent on us to follow, if we are their disciples indeed, their testimonies to this effect. For Matthew the apostle -- knowing, as one and the same God, Him who had given promise to Abraham, that He would make his seed as the stars of heaven,(2) and Him who, by His Son Christ Jesus, has called us to the knowledge of Himself, from the worship of stones, so that those who were not a people were made a people, and she beloved who was not beloved(3) -- declares that John, when preparing the way for Christ, said to those who were boasting of their relationship [to Abraham] according to the flesh, but who had their mind tinged and stuffed with all manner of evil, preaching that repentance which should call them back from their evil doings, said, "O generation of vipers, who hath shown you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruit meet for repentance. And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham [to our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham."(4) He preached to them, therefore, the repentance from wickedness, but he did not declare to them another God, besides Him who made the promise to Abraham; he, the forerunner of Christ, of whom Matthew again says, and Luke likewise, "For this is he that was spoken of from the Lord by the prophet, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight the paths of our God. Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough into smooth ways; and all flesh shall see the salvation of God."(5) There is therefore one and the same God, the Father of our Lord, who also promised, through the prophets, that He would send His forerunner; and His salvation -- that is, His Word -- He caused to be made visible to all flesh, [the Word] Himself being made incarnate, that in all things their King might become manifest. For it is necessary that those [beings] which are judged do see the judge, and know Him from whom they receive judgment; and it is also proper, that those which follow on to glory should know Him who bestows upon them the gift of glory.
1.10.1 Wherefore also Mark, the interpreter and follower of Peter, does thus commence his Gospel narrative: "The beginning of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; as it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send My messenger before Thy face, which shall prepare Thy way.(10) The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make the paths straight before our God." Plainly does the commencement of the Gospel quote the words of the holy prophets, and point out Him at once, whom they confessed as God and Lord; Him, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who had also made promise to Him, that He would send His messenger before His face, who was John, crying in the wilderness, in "the spirit and power of Elias,"(1)"Prepare ye the way of me Lord, make straight paths before our God." For the prophets did not announce one and mother God, but one and the same; under rations aspects, however, and many titles. For varied and rich in attribute is the Father, as I have already shown in the book preceding(2) this; and I shall show [the same truth] from the prophets themselves in the further course of this work. Also, towards the conclusion of his Gospel, Mark says: "So then, after the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God; "(3) confirming what had been spoken by the prophet: "The LORD said to my Lord, Sit Thou on My right hand, until I make Thy foes Thy footstool."(4) Thus God and the Father are truly one and the same; He who was announced by the prophets, and handed down by the true Gospel; whom we Christians worship and love with the whole heart, as the Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things therein.
To me at least the comparison of Mark and Matthew that is inherent in the comparison of Mark 1.1 and Matthew leads to the conclusion of Mark and necessarily an argument back to the apostles. The apostles as a group preached a message which Matthew the apostle (notice the emphasis) was first to publish while Peter and Paul were preaching in Rome. The gospel of Mark is acceptable because Mark was the interpreter of an apostle. This is 'proved' by the parallel between Mark and Matthew's use of Isaiah in Mark 1.1 and Matthew. But the conclusion of Mark and its use of Psalm 110.1 necessarily needs to find similar support from the apostles. This gets obscured by the manner in which Adv Haer 3 goes on to the gospel of John as part of the later developed argument for the fourfold gospel.

It seems to me to make sense - given the texts emphasis that Mark was the interpreter of Peter than all of what follows in chapter 11 was a later addition and that the reference to Mark's use of Psalm 110 immediately went on to chapter 12 with its discussion of Acts allusion to Peter's use of Psalm 110.1. It begins:
The Apostle Peter, therefore, after the resurrection of the Lord, and His assumption into the heavens, being desirous of filling up the number of the twelve apostles, and in electing into the place of Judas any substitute who should be chosen by God, thus addressed those who were present: "Men [and] brethren, this Scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost, by the mouth of David, spake before concerning Judas, which was made guide to them that took Jesus. For he was numbered with us. Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein; and, His bishoprick let another take;" thus leading to the completion of the apostles, according to the words spoken by David. Again, when the Holy Ghost had descended upon the disciples, that they all might prophesy and speak with tongues, and some mocked them, as if drunken with new wine, Peter said that they were not drunken, for it was the third hour of the day; but that this was what had been spoken by the prophet: "It shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh, and they shall prophesy." The God, therefore, who did promise by the prophet, that He would send His Spirit upon the whole human race, was He who did send; and God Himself is announced by Peter as having fulfilled His own promise.

For Peter said, "Ye men of Israel, hear my words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved by God among you by powers, and wonders, and signs, which God did by Him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determined counsel and foreknowledge of God, by the hands of wicked men ye have slain, affixing [to the cross]: whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death; because it was not possible that he should be holden of them. For David speaketh concerning Him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face; for He is on my right hand, lest I should be moved: therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also, my flesh shall rest in hope: because Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt Thou give Thy Holy One to see corruption." Then he proceeds to speak confidently to them concerning the patriarch David, that he was dead and buried, and that his sepulchre is with them to this day. He said, "But since he was a prophet, and knew that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his body one should sit in his throne; foreseeing this, he spake of the resurrection of Christ, that He was not left in hell, neither did His flesh see corruption. This Jesus," he said, "hath God raised up, of which we all are witnesses: who, being exalted by the right hand of God, receiving from the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, hath shed forth this gift which ye now see and hear. For David has not ascended into the heavens; but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit Thou on My fight hand, until I make Thy foes Thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made [that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ." And when the multitudes exclaimed, "What shall we do then?" Peter says to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Thus the apostles did not preach another God, or another Fulness; nor, that the Christ who suffered and rose again was one, while he who flew off on high was another, and remained impossible; but that there was one and the same God the Father, and Christ Jesus who rose from the dead; and they preached faith in Him, to those who did not believe on the Son of God, and exhorted them out of the prophets, that the Christ whom God promised to send, He sent in Jesus, whom they crucified and God raised up.
I think that my reconstruction of an original argument made by someone deeply influenced by Papias (undoubtedly Irenaeus) which compared and argued on behalf of two gospels - one a narrative text of Matthew and another a closely related narrative text of Mark - makes a lot of sense. I don't think that Papias actually makes reference to either of these canonical texts. His Matthew is a collection of oracles. Who knows what his gospel of Mark looked like. But someone after Papias made reference to a Matthew gospel and a Mark gospel which were argued to 'say the same thing' or perhaps better yet - that Mark was compatible with the orthodoxy of the apostles which was manifest in the canonical gospel of Matthew.

That Matthew = the tradition of the apostles seems to be implicit or explicit from Papias. This text was not a narrative gospel. However it has long been recognized that the opening arguments from Book Three were influenced by and to some degree misrepresent what Papias originally said. What I am arguing for is that this Papias-based argument extended throughout the first twelve chapters of Book 3. The argument seems to be on behalf of a canonical gospel of Mark, an 'orthodox' gospel of Mark. This text was later transformed in Adversus Haereses as part of an anti-Valentinian effort of Irenaeus at the end of the second century. Two new gospels were added - Luke and John - where the Marcionites corrupted Luke to make their gospel and the Valentinians had John. This is how the fourfold gospel emerged but it seems clear it was built on the back of an argument in favor of Mark as an orthodox gospel. This argument was made with Papias's original discussion in mind.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Reconstructing the Proto-(Papias Based)Text for Adversus Haereses 3

Post by Secret Alias »

The citation of Psalm 16 in Acts is interesting
I foresaw the Lord always before my face; for He is on my right hand, lest I should be moved: therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also, my flesh shall rest in hope: because Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt Thou give Thy Holy One to see corruption."
The context is clearly that David sat on the left hand of God. Interesting there is a strong tradition that the Marcionites viewed Paul as sitting on the left of God.

Immediately after this chapter, chapter 13 seems to infer that 'those who used only Mark' had strange opinions about Paul:
With regard to those who allege that Paul alone knew the truth, and that to him the mystery was manifested by revelation, let Paul himself convict them, when he says, that one and the same God wrought in Peter for the apostolate of the circumcision, and in himself for the Gentiles. Peter, therefore, was an apostle of that very God whose was also Paul; and Him whom Peter preached as God among those of the circumcision, and likewise the Son of God, did Paul [declare] also among the Gentiles. For our Lord never came to save Paul alone, nor is God so limited in means, that He should have but one apostle who knew the dispensation of His Son.
Indeed in the context it would appear that not only did (a) Paul only know the truth (b) only to him was a mystery manifested by revelation (c) Paul argued for two gods but (d) Jesus came to save Paul alone as he was the only apostle. It would not be surprising to see Paul - not Jesus - raised to heaven to sit to God's left.

The orthodox assumption seems to be that Jesus was raised as the son of David. The heretical assumption based on Mark was that there were two powers and that Paul was likely the resurrected son of David who - perhaps - sat at the left hand of God.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Reconstructing the Proto-(Papias Based)Text for Adversus Haereses 3

Post by Secret Alias »

The reference in Origen Homilies on Luke 25:

Certain persons have broken out into such audacity of affection as to invent new and unheard-of monstrosities about Paul. For some say that what has been written, 'to sit on the right hand and the left hand of the Saviour,' was spoken of Paul and of Marcion: that Paul should sit on the right hand, Marcion should sit on the left. Moreover others, reading, ' I will send you an Advocate, the Spirit of truth,' do not wish to understand a third person from the Father and the Son, and a divine and exalted nature, but the apostle Paul. https://books.google.com/books?id=GcXa_ ... es&f=false

Marcion is here on the left not Paul but ...
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Re: Reconstructing the Proto-(Papias Based)Text for Adversus Haereses 3

Post by Secret Alias »

I still can't get over the logic of this argument:
For Peter said, "Ye men of Israel, hear my words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved by God among you by powers, and wonders, and signs, which God did by Him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determined counsel and foreknowledge of God, by the hands of wicked men ye have slain, affixing [to the cross]: whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death; because it was not possible that he should be holden of them. For David speaketh concerning Him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face; for He is on my right hand, lest I should be moved: therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also, my flesh shall rest in hope: because Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt Thou give Thy Holy One to see corruption." Then he [Peter] proceeds to speak confidently to them concerning the patriarch David, that he was dead and buried, and that his sepulchre is with them to this day. He said, "But since he was a prophet, and knew that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his body one should sit in his throne; foreseeing this, he spake of the resurrection of Christ, that He was not left in hell, neither did His flesh see corruption. This Jesus," he said, "hath God raised up, of which we all are witnesses: who, being exalted by the right hand of God, receiving from the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, hath shed forth this gift which ye now see and hear. For David has not ascended into the heavens; but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit Thou on My fight hand, until I make Thy foes Thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made [that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ."


The original passage in Acts is:
“Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men,[d] put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him. 25 David said about him:

“‘I saw the Lord always before me.
Because he is at my right hand,
I will not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices;
my body also will rest in hope,
27 because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead,
you will not let your holy one see decay.
28 You have made known to me the paths of life;
you will fill me with joy in your presence.’
29 “Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,

“‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
35 until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.”’[f]
36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”
Unless I am missing something the argument seems to be - Psalm 16 is David speaking on behalf of his son saying that the Lord is at his right hand, Psalm 110 is taken to confirm that Jesus was at God's right hand. I am missing something I think. But Psalm 16 really has David confident that Yahweh will preserve him from an untimely death and instead grant him a rich full life because he has chosen Yahweh as his portion and he knows that Yahweh will not permit his "loyal one" to be overcome with calamity and death (Cf. Birmingham, "Psalm 16," 26).

Paul has much the same interpretation in chapter 13:
“From this man’s descendants God has brought to Israel the Savior Jesus, as he promised. 24 Before the coming of Jesus, John preached repentance and baptism to all the people of Israel. 25 As John was completing his work, he said: ‘Who do you suppose I am? I am not the one you are looking for. But there is one coming after me whose sandals I am not worthy to untie.’

26 “Fellow children of Abraham and you God-fearing Gentiles, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent. 27 The people of Jerusalem and their rulers did not recognize Jesus, yet in condemning him they fulfilled the words of the prophets that are read every Sabbath. 28 Though they found no proper ground for a death sentence, they asked Pilate to have him executed. 29 When they had carried out all that was written about him, they took him down from the cross and laid him in a tomb. 30 But God raised him from the dead, 31 and for many days he was seen by those who had traveled with him from Galilee to Jerusalem. They are now his witnesses to our people.

32 “We tell you the good news: What God promised our ancestors 33 he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm:

“‘You are my son;
today I have become your father.’
34 God raised him from the dead so that he will never be subject to decay. As God has said,

“‘I will give you the holy and sure blessings promised to David.’[c]
35 So it is also stated elsewhere:

“‘You will not let your holy one see decay.’[d]
36 “Now when David had served God’s purpose in his own generation, he fell asleep; he was buried with his ancestors and his body decayed. 37 But the one whom God raised from the dead did not see decay.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Re: Reconstructing the Proto-(Papias Based)Text for Adversus Haereses 3

Post by Secret Alias »

Was there a tradition in the second century which understood that David had never died?
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Re: Reconstructing the Proto-(Papias Based)Text for Adversus Haereses 3

Post by Secret Alias »

The identification of Jesus as 'the holy one of God' in the gospel seems to be connected to this passage. Tertullian Adv Marc 4.7.11:
And thus He will either have to be acknowledged as belonging to Him,180 in accordance with whom He taught; or else will have to be adjudged a deceiver since He taught in accordance with One whom He had come to oppose. In the same passage, "the spirit of an unclean devil" exclaims: "What have we to do with Thee, Thou Jesus? Art Thou come to destroy us? I know Thee who Thou art, the Holy One of God."181 [10] I do not here raise the question whether this appellation was suitable to one who ought not to be called Christ, unless he were sent by the Creator.182 Elsewhere183 there has been already given a full consideration of His titles.

My present discussion is, how the evil spirit could have known that He was called by such a name, when there had never at any time been uttered about Him a single prophecy by a god who was unknown, and up to that time silent, of whom it was not possible for Him to be attested as "the Holy One," as (of a god) unknown even to his own Creator. What similar event could he then have published184 of a new deity, whereby he might betoken for "the holy one" of the rival god? [11] Simply that he went into the synagogue, and did nothing even in word against the Creator? As therefore he could not by any means acknowledge him, whom he was ignorant of, to be Jesus and the Holy One of God; so did he acknowledge Him whom he knew (to be both). For he remembered how that the prophet had prophesied185 of "the Holy One" of God, and how that God's name of "Jesus" was in the son of Nun.186 These facts he had also received187 from the angel, according to our Gospel: "Wherefore that which shall be born of thee shall be called the Holy One, the Son of God; "188 and, "Thou shalt call his name Jesus."
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Re: Reconstructing the Proto-(Papias Based)Text for Adversus Haereses 3

Post by Secret Alias »

Origen's interpretation of the Psalm and its context in the resurrection implies that Jesus's soul was in a body which wasn't the same as the one he had before the resurrection:
Now it followed from all the predictions which were uttered regarding Him— among which was this prediction of the resurrection— and, from all that was done by Him, and from all the events which befell Him, that this event should be marvellous above all others. For it had been said beforehand by the prophet in the person of Jesus: My flesh shall rest in hope, and You will not leave my soul in Hades, and will not suffer Your Holy One to see corruption. And truly, after His resurrection, He existed in a body intermediate, as it were, between the grossness of that which He had before His sufferings, and the appearance of a soul uncovered by such a body. And hence it was, that when His disciples were together, and Thomas with them, there came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. Then says He to Thomas, Reach hither your finger, etc.
I can't help shake the feeling that Jesus appeared in Paul after the resurrection. This must have been the belief of one of the communities in early Christianity.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Re: Reconstructing the Proto-(Papias Based)Text for Adversus Haereses 3

Post by Stuart »

Out of curiosity, how did you arrive at Papias as an author?

We have only a few scarps from the ever unreliable Eusubius, claiming to have seen them for his lost books in a catalogue supposedly of Irenaues(1), who is notorious for, well, not getting it right, and later persons such as Jerome (c. 400 AD, although Detering casts strong doubts on so early a date for the works in his name). Others are much later 5th, 9th and even 14th century. In fact the old Latin prologue to John which is cited to claim Papias had contact with Marcion is from the 9th century.

(1) the entire concept of a catalogue or list makes little sense before the Diocletian persecution, when Christians were attempting to recover as many lost texts as possible, and determining which ones to copy and preserve from those which survived the persecution.

Anyway how did you arrive at this legendary character as the author of AM3 (which borrows about 30% of its text from AJ)


*** edited poorly written sentence for Ben Smith; Thx for the feedback **
Last edited by Stuart on Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Reconstructing the Proto-(Papias Based)Text for Adversus Haereses 3

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Stuart wrote: Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:58 pmWe have only a few scraps from the ever unreliable Eusubius, claiming to have seen them in a lost catalogue of Irenaues(1)....
What does this sentence mean? I am not grasping what you are trying to say.
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Re: Reconstructing the Proto-(Papias Based)Text for Adversus Haereses 3

Post by Secret Alias »

Jewish tradition understands the Psalm to apply to David (as he is talking in the first person throughout) that his body would not undergo corruption https://books.google.com/books?id=8fX9x ... an&f=false
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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