Valens/Valentinus, Flora/Florinus and Marcus/Marcianus

[davidbrainerd]

This thread is the "everyone named Donald is Trump, everyone named George is Bush, and everyone named Barry is Bathhouse Barry" fallacy. then just throw in Ronald, Jorge, and Barak for good measure, and you have perfect Huller logic. Barry Allen = Barry Obummer. Ronald Regan = Donald Trump. Every Jorge crossing the border = George Bush. and since Harry sounds kind of like Barry, every Tom and Dick might not be, but every Harry is Obama. Every Dick is Nixon, even Dick Tracy.

[Secret Alias]

This thread is the "everyone named Donald is Trump,

I don't think that this is what the thread is saying although I am only the one doing the most writing so what do I know. But now as long you are on that topic Iaian MacKenzie in his English translation of Irenaeus's Proof notes the significance of the Church Father's opening address to a figure referred to as 'Marcianus':

"Knowing my beloved Marcianus, that your desire to walk in godliness, which alone leads man to life eternal, I rejoice with you and make my prayer that you may preserve your faith entire and so be pleasing to God who made you ..."

MacKenzie notes that "there may be some grounds for supposing that Marcianus is the epitome of the disillusioned followers of Marcion against whose division of the Creator God of the Old Testament and the Good God of the New" and then goes to say:

Eusebius notes that Irenaeus 'wrote a work dedicated to a brother Marcian'. The language used here in Section 1, the introduction, of the Demonstration of the Apostolic Preaching, would suggest that the name was indeed that of a friend and not a stylized device ... On the other hand, though the introduction would seem to be ruled out as a mere stylistic or literary device because of its specific address and detailed comments of a personal nature, the name Marcianos could have been employed as a personalized representation for the purpose of addressing the work to a particular body of persons - the Μαρκιανοί, Marcianoi, the appellation used by Justin Martyr for the followers of the heretic Marcion. That the argument of this work could be directed towards persuading perhaps hesitant followers of Marcionism may be supported (though there is no direct attack on that heresy in the Demonstration) by several emphases of Irenaeus implying a criticism of that heretical scheme. First, the place he gives to the prophets of the Old Testament in relation to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the God who is both Creator and Redeemer. Second, the oft-repeated, emphatic linking of 'Father' with 'Creator' and the insistence that there is no disjunction between creation and Lordship, that is, there is not a Creator God and another God who is now Lord over that which is the work of the other. Third, and following this as an extension (though it is equally applicable to various Gnostic tenets), the censure 'none should imagine God the Father to be other than our Creator, as the heretics imagine' is significant as a principal statement in the summing up of the reasons for producing this work. This points back to Irenaeus's giving priority of place in the preceding argument to the title Father and it is this which was to be paralleled so closely by Athanasius later in his assertion that God is known essentially through the Son as Father and that he always has been Father, and that he was not always Creator. This will be discussed below in Chapter 13 [p. 200 - 201]

The phenomenon that MacKenzie is referencing is known to anyone who has ever studied the earliest sources on Marcion. Von Harnack for instance writes:

Die Μαρκιανοί sind höchstwahrscheinlich Marcioniten; denn bei Hegesipp, der von Justin nicht unabhängig sein wird, liest man 1. c. Μαρκιανισταί. Daß aber diese (die Codd. TcERB, Euseb. Lat., Euseb. Syr. Μαρκίωνισταί) Marcioniten sind, ergibt sich aus Euseb. V, 16, 21: οί ἀπό Μαρκίωνος αιρέσίως Μαρκιανισταί (so Schwatz mit AT(1)D). Korrekt ist Μαρκιανισταί für die Messalianer (Euchiten), genannt nach dem Wechsler Marcianus; s. Anrich, Hagios Nikolaos I S. 425; II S. 340 f. Die Marcianisten im Theodos. Codex XVI, 5.65 (Gesetz v. 30. Mai 428 = Justinian. 1,5,5 ) zwischen Phrygern und Borborianern sind wohl Anhänger des Gnostikers Marcus. Aber auch Marcions Anhänger konnten "Marcianisten" und " Marcianer" heißen da "Marcion" lediglich eine Nebenform zu "Marcus" ist; diese Nebenform ist nicht häufig; doch s. den christkatholischen Bruder " Marcion" im Mart.Polye. 20 und die Inschrift auf der Basis Capitolina [von Harnack Marcion II.9]

More recently Wolfgang Schenk in his Die Jesus-Rezeption des Markion als theologisches Problem (in Von Jesus zum Christus: christologische Studien:Festgabe für Paul Hoffmann (1989) p. 509) clarifies von Harnack's argument by specifically noting that "Marcion is just a Greek diminutive subform to the Latin Marcus" (da 'Markion' ja nur eine diminutive griechische Nebenfom zum lateinischen 'Marcus' ist). This seems to be confirmed by Hilgenfeld's (“Häreseologische Berichtigungen”, Zeitschrift für wissenschaftliche Theologie,(1888), XXIII, 478—483):

Dass Μαρκίων ein Deminutivum von Μαρκος ist, schliesse ich auch aus dem Verhaltniss von Εὐρυτίων zu Εὔρυτος (vgl. Phil. Griech. Gramm. 21. Aufl. S. 119, Anm. 12), κοδράτίων (bei Philostratus vit. sophist. II, 6 p. 250) zu κοδράτος (vgl. W. H. Waddington, Memoire sur la Chronologie de la vie du rheteur Aristide, 1867, p. 32). So möchte ich auch an den von dem Verfasser der Philosophumena so angefeindeten κάλλιστος, romanischen Bishof 217 - 222, denken, wenn Rhodon bei Eusebius KG, V, 13, 8 κάλλιστίωνι προσφωνων genanne wird. Um so mehr werden die Μαρκιανοί welche Justinus Dial. c. Tr. c. 35 p. 253 vor Valentinianern, Basilidianern, Satornillianern, u.s.w. erwahnt, Marcioniten sein. Ebenso wird man in dem Muratorianum Z 82 - 84 zu lesen haben: quia etiam novum psalmorum librum Marciani (= Marcionitae) conscripserunt.

That Μαρκίων is a diminutive of Μαρκος, I conclude also from the relation of Εὔρυτος to Εὐρυτίων, (vgl. Phil. Griech. Gramm. 21. Aufl. S. 119, Anm. 12), κοδράτίων (from Philostratus vit. sophist. II, 6 p. 250) to κοδράτος (vgl. W. H. Waddington, Memoire sur la Chronologie de la vie du rheteur Aristide, 1867, p. 32). So also I think κάλλιστος, the Roman Bishop (217 - 222) against whom the author of the Philosophumena shows such hostility, is behind Rhodon's reference to κάλλιστίωνι προσφωνων (Eusebius, Church History V, 13, 8). Stronger still is the case for the Μαρκιανοί - which Justin Dial c. Tr. c. 35 p. 253 mentions before the Valentinians, Basilideans, Satornillians, etc - being a reference to Marcionites. Similarly, one will have to read the Muratorianum Z 82-84: quia etiam librum novum psalmorum Marciani (= Marcionitae conscripserunt).

In another place we read:

The Μαρκιανοί are most likely Marcionites, because that which appears in Justin will not be independent from Hegesippus where we read first the term Μαρκιανισταί. But that these others - i.e. the MSS. TcERB, Eusebius. Lat., Eusebius. Syr. Μαρκίωνισταί are Marcionites is demonstrable from Eusebius. V, 16, 21: οί ἀπό Μαρκίωνος αιρέσίως Μαρκιανισταί (so chat with AT (1) D). It is correct to use Μαρκιανισταί for Messalians (Euchites) named after the moneychanger Marcianus; see Anrich, Aghios Nikolaos I, p. 425; II, p. 340 in f. The Marcianisten in Theodosius. Codex XVI, 5.65 (Act of May 30 428 = Justinian. 1,5,5) are placed between the Phrygians and the Borborites and are certainly followers of the Gnostic Marcus. But Marcion's followers could be called "Marcianisten" and "Marcian" as "Marcion" is only a subform of 'Marcus,' this subform is not common, but see in the Christian Catholic Brother "Marcion" Mart.Polyc. 20 and the inscription on the Capitoline Base

[spin]

Let me try again. Marcus is a noun. Marcius, strictly speaking is an adjective that was later treated like a noun especially in the construction of cognomen i.e. from Marcius Marcianus was constructed.

You propose a two-step model which demonstrates that Marcianus is derived from Marcius. What you don't do is provide any tangible direct link between Marcus and Marcianus.

"Marcius" was a gens that existed for at least five centuries before the empire. There is no clear evidence to clarify the relationship between Marcus and Marcius. All I've seen so far is 19th century derivation theories rehearsed in the 20th and 21st centuries. Etymology won't help to overcome the obvious and direct connection between Marcius and Marcianus. Consider Trajan's sister, Ulpia Marciana, whose mother was Marcia, daughter of Q. Marcius Barea Sura.

When we reach later centuries derived cognomina took on lives of their own in the provinces, unrelated to family names. They were taken on to give families a certain Romanity.

[Secret Alias]

But was the nomen treated as a noun before the late republic? No it wasn't. Hence the five centuries business is misleading.

[Secret Alias]

From Meister's (1915) conclusions about the original adjectival nature of nomen:

Das hier vorgelegte Material zeigt deutlich, daß das Schwanken des Ausdrucks, der das Gentilicium bald als Substantivum, bald als Adjektivum erscheinen läßt, nicht nur auf einer Unsicherheit des Sprach bewußtseins gegenüber einzelnen Grenzfällen beruht. Wir müßten dann wirklich unterscheidungslos die ältere und die jüngere Bezeich nungsweise finden. Aber überall, wo der Name an eine datierbare Per sönlichkeit, an ein bestimmtes Ereignis geknüpft ist, oder wo sach liche Erwägung das Jüngere vom Alteren zu scheiden erlaubt, sehen wir, daß die adjektivische Verwendung des Gentiliciums der substan tivischen vorausgeht. Bemerkenswert ist

[spin]

But was the nomen treated as a noun before the late republic? No it wasn't. Hence the five centuries business is misleading.

Perhaps you don't think the construction of the adoptive cognomen is significant, I don't know, but all you are doing is showing you have no reason to believe your conjecture about a direct relation between Marcus and Marcianus, so you talk about other things or cite people who have proposed the same sort of conjecture.

We have a demonstrable path from Marcius to Marcianus. This is not conclusion driven.

[Secret Alias]

Christus (“Christ”) → christiānus (“christian”).

[Secret Alias]

Bickerman - https://books.google.com/books?id=IoMtD ... 22&f=false

Bickerman again with specific reference to Christian group names - https://books.google.com/books?id=gqQfA ... ed&f=false

I am glad we are having this discussion because I find Bickerman's explanation very useful for understanding the peculiarities of naming groups, something I have been interested for some time.

[spin]

Bickerman - https://books.google.com/books?id=IoMtD ... 22&f=false

Bickerman again with specific reference to Christian group names - https://books.google.com/books?id=gqQfA ... ed&f=false

I am glad we are having this discussion because I find Bickerman's explanation very useful for understanding the peculiarities of naming groups, something I have been interested for some time.

Diogenes - root has eta -> i- + -an
Sosikrates - root has eta -> i- + -an
Herodes - root has eta -> i- + -an

Caesar (gen. -is, dat. -i) root has "i"

Gibbon in bk 5 mentions one Proculius. (And I've found mention of an Aelius Proculius).

(Footnote 58 is funny. Greeks protesting about Romanized names such as Tittianos, which some changed to Titanios. The source name was the Latin name TIttius.)

Quite a few of Bickerman's examples are straight out bogus (though this is good: Augustiani, sourced in Tac & Suet, likewise [legio ac septima] Galbiana).

The claimed suffix "-ian" needs to be better understood than the crappy expositions available.

Nonetheless, we have the fact that Marcianus comes from Marcius, not Marcus. Perhaps, while you're here, you could advocate that Mucianus comes from Mucus rather than Mucius.

[Secret Alias]

Yes but it has to be said that the 'Latinized Greek' is at the core of your understanding of the gospel of Mark and it shows up here in the construction of sectarian name-making. I always thought this was not coincidental. At the very beginning of Catholic or orthodox Christianity is the notion that the 'other' Christians were scattered into countless sectarian groups, sectarian groups which are identified more often than not with Latinized suffixes in Greek. As I said I don't think that is coincidental.

The example of Hegesippus (pre-Irenaean) is useful in this regard:

Therefore was the Church called a virgin, for she was not as yet corrupted by worthless teaching. Thebulis it was who, displeased because he was not made bishop, first began to corrupt her by stealth. He too was connected with the seven sects which existed among the people, like Simon, from whom come the Simoniani; and Cleobius, from whom come the Cleobiani; and Doritheus, from whom come the Dorithiani; and Gorthaeus, from whom come the Gortheani; Masbothaeus, from whom come the Masbothaei. From these men also come the Menandrianists, and the Marcianists, and the Carpocratians, and the Valentinians, and the Basilidians, and the Saturnilians. Each of these leaders in his own private and distinct capacity brought in his own private opinion. From these have come false Christs, false prophets, false apostles-men who have split up the one Church into parts through their corrupting doctrines, uttered in disparagement of God and of His Christ....

There seems to be a blanket + ianus construction for all the group names regardless of whether or not the original name ended in a vowel or not. The original name of Carpocrates was likely Carpocras not Carpocrates (diminutive form) as we see from the surviving Syntagma of Hippolytus (Panarion, Filaster).