Valens/Valentinus, Flora/Florinus and Marcus/Marcianus

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Secret Alias
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Re: Valens/Valentinus, Flora/Florinus and Marcus/Marcianus

Post by Secret Alias »

OCD:

There was a great variety of cognomina. The could be Latin, Greek, or
'barbarian'. The denote physical peculiarities (Longus, Callistus),
mental qualities (Clemens, Agatho), circumstances, especially the
so-called wish-names (Felix, Eutyches), circumstances of birth or sex
(Natalis, Masculus), occupations (Agricola), fauna and flora (Leo,
Arbuscula, Anthus), other substantives used metonymically (Oriens,
Silva, Sagita, Spinther), and abstracts (Victoria, Helpis). Cognomina
derived from other names, directly or with suffixes, are very popular:
from praenomina (Marcus, Marcellus), gentile names (Iulianus), other
cognomina (Frontinus), names of historical figures (Sulla, Alexander),
divine and mythological names (Saturninus, Romulus, Diodorus, Hermes),
and place names (Romanus, Macedo; metonymically similar Italia,
Corinthus; such names did not necessarily denote origin); derivatives
from appellatives are also common (Cato from catus). A person could
bear more than one cognomen, especially in old aristocratic families,
where the first (and eventually the second) cognomen had become
hereditary: P. Cornelius Scipio Nasica Corculum. . . . "
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Valens/Valentinus, Flora/Florinus and Marcus/Marcianus

Post by Secret Alias »

There is a discussion of 'Cognomina obtained from praenomina' in Kajanto's Latin Cognomina (n. 62), p. 39-43, supplemented by the lists on p. 172-178, but the presentation is focussed on etymology and hardly takes into account the different possibilities of arriving at the choice a certain name. For example, Titianus -a, a name one would normally assume to have been derived from one would normally assume to have been derived from the nomen Titius (and because of this, it is enumerated among cognomina derived from nomina Kajanto p. 157), is, in the case of T. Flavii Titiani and Flaviae Titianae, surely derived from the praenomen Titus (and should thus have been mentioned also on p. 175). Again, persons called Aurelius Marcus, probably all descendants of M. Aurelii, belong to a different category than, say, Marcius Marcus (CIL III 5596) whose cognomen seems to have been derived from his nomen (this mans's brother was called Marcellinus) https://books.google.com/books?id=DBQMA ... her+was%22
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Valens/Valentinus, Flora/Florinus and Marcus/Marcianus

Post by Secret Alias »

No one seems to deny Kajanto's understanding that cognomina were formed from praenomina and especially the praenomen Marcus. What they don't seem to like about Kajanto's book is the way it is organized. Indeed this is what I don't understand about your criticism. You seem to be arguing that the construction of cognomina was rigid and monolithic - this without having any expertise or having spent any serious amount of time examining the evidence. Now while I admit I have spent even less time thinking about this subject (outside of course trying to explain or manipulate the evidence in favor of an identification of Marcion with Marcus). Nevertheless I have found one of the foremost authorities on the subject of cognomina construction who at least nominally supports the idea that Marcianus could be developed from the praenomen Marcus. While it is true that when I discovered this I hadn't spent a lot of time understanding WHY Kajanto came to this conclusion the reality is that I have no expertise in these matters. Why would I know why Kajanto came to this conclusion? Indeed it is hard to 'discover' something you already know? The point is that this sort of thing - i.e. arguing why an expert in the field came to a conclusion - is a different sort of argument than for instance whether or not Jesus is a historical person. Surely citing the opinion of someone who has spent 20 years studying cancer cells on the subject of cancer is different than simply arguing as a naive observer that cancer comes from exposure to birds or cats. As stupid as the opinion might seem to be if a man or woman who studied cancer for 20 years say that coming into contact with birds can lead to cancer it is different than my neighbor just telling me that he had a dream which told him this. It deserves to be at least taken seriously, examined seriously, considered seriously. You simply can't go back to 'cognomina are derived from nomina, fuck what Kajanto says.'
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
davidbrainerd
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Re: Valens/Valentinus, Flora/Florinus and Marcus/Marcianus

Post by davidbrainerd »

blogspot started charging you per post so you made this site your personal blog?
Secret Alias
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Re: Valens/Valentinus, Flora/Florinus and Marcus/Marcianus

Post by Secret Alias »

It is an interesting topic. Kajanto brings up the unusual manner in which heretics are referenced in Patristic texts. Even the gospel is odd with its "according to (praenomen)." I happen to find it of interest. Whatever doesn't destroy me makes me stronger.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Valens/Valentinus, Flora/Florinus and Marcus/Marcianus

Post by Secret Alias »

And since spin seems to be confident in his abilities maybe he can explain Epiphanius's Μαρκώσιοι
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Valens/Valentinus, Flora/Florinus and Marcus/Marcianus

Post by Secret Alias »

The closest I get is Παλαιπερκώσιοι. Apparently the residents of Percote (called Percope by Strabo) were called Περκώσιοι
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... rkw%2Fsios
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Valens/Valentinus, Flora/Florinus and Marcus/Marcianus

Post by Secret Alias »

Alternatively it is argued to mean "of King Percosius" http://latinlexicon.org/definition.php?p1=2043222
Last edited by Secret Alias on Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Valens/Valentinus, Flora/Florinus and Marcus/Marcianus

Post by Secret Alias »

“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Valens/Valentinus, Flora/Florinus and Marcus/Marcianus

Post by Secret Alias »

Cyzicus himself, side by side with Aeson’s son, betakes him to the shore, shedding tears at their parting, and loads him with princely gifts, garments first, which his wife Percosian Clite had given him and embroidered with patterned gold. Also he gave him a helmet and the unconquerable spear his father bore: himself in return receives a goblet from the chief and a Thessalian bridle; they clasped hands and made their houses one.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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