Valens/Valentinus, Flora/Florinus and Marcus/Marcianus

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Secret Alias
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Re: Valens/Valentinus, Flora/Florinus and Marcus/Marcianus

Post by Secret Alias »

The sudden appearance of this sentence in the citation from Irenaeus's passage has always puzzled scholars:
This Marcus then, says that he and he alone in his uniqueness has become the womb and receptacle of Colorbasus' Silence and brought forth the actual seed of Defect, which has somehow been sown in him here.

Οὗτος οὖν ὁ Μάρκος μήτραν καὶ ἐκδοχεῖον τῆς Κολορβάσου Σιγῆς αὑτὸν μονώτατον γεγονέναι λέγων, ἅτε μονογενὴς ὑπάρχων, αὐτὸ τὸ τοῦ Ὑστερήματος σπέρμα κατατεθὲν εἰς αὐτὸν ὧδέ πως ἀπεκύησεν
The phrase τῆς Κολορβάσου Σιγῆς necessarily means that the original term was the Silence of Κολορβάς. The pattern of names ending in -ᾶς (diminutive). Καρποκρᾶς = Καρποκράτης. Does that mean Κολορβάς = Κολορβάτης?
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Valens/Valentinus, Flora/Florinus and Marcus/Marcianus

Post by Secret Alias »

I think I might have figured out a solution to the difficulty of 'τῆς Κολορβάσου Σιγῆς' in this section. I went through all the other references to Sige in the report and noticed this:
But who will tolerate thy too much babbling Sige (τὴν τοσαῦτα φλυαροῦσαν Σιγήν), who names Him that cannot be named, and expounds the nature of Him that is unspeakable, and searches out Him that is unsearchable, and declares that He whom thou maintainest to be destitute of body and form, opened His mouth and sent forth the Word, as if He were included among organized beings; and that His Word, while like to His Author, and bearing the image of the invisible, nevertheless consisted of thirty elements and four syllables?
Rather than arguing that there was an Aramaic or Syriac original text for Irenaeus (as did) I would rather assume that heretical teachers were created out of errors in the transcription of the original MSS. So an original appearance of τὴν φλυαροῦσαν Σιγήν became τῆς Κολορβάσου:
This Marcus then, says that he and he alone in his uniqueness has become the womb and receptacle of the babbling Silence and brought forth the actual seed of Defect, which has somehow been sown in him here
.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Valens/Valentinus, Flora/Florinus and Marcus/Marcianus

Post by Secret Alias »

It is worth noting that the Qoppa = Ϙ (qōph I can't publish the character here) was still used in Rhegium and had a 'k' sound and might have been mistaken for a φ Phi
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Valens/Valentinus, Flora/Florinus and Marcus/Marcianus

Post by Secret Alias »

Another example of Marcus's Sige's 'babbling':
And the first heaven utters the alpha, the next, the epsilon, the third, the eta. The fourth and midmost of the seven, pronounces the value of the iota, the fifth, the omicron, the sixth, the ypsilon. But the seventh, and fourth from the middle, cries out the sound, omega,' as Marcus' Sige affirms, who talks all sorts of babbling but says nothing that is true (ἡ πολλὰ μὲν φλυαροῦσα μηδὲν δὲ ἀληθὲς λέγουσα διαβεβαιοῦται).
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Re: Valens/Valentinus, Flora/Florinus and Marcus/Marcianus

Post by Secret Alias »

And again in the Philosophumena:
For, infusing secretly into the mixture some drug that possessed the power of imparting such a colour, uttering for a, considerable time babblings (φλυαρῶν), he was in the habit of waiting, that the (drug), obtaining a supply of moisture, might be dissolved, and, being intermingled with the potion, might impart its colour to it.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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John T
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Re: Valens/Valentinus, Flora/Florinus and Marcus/Marcianus

Post by John T »

Secret Alias wrote:
Unlike other people at the forum I am not here to 'win' stupid debates.
Help me with my stupidity.

What is your key point? :scratch:
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."...Jonathan Swift
Secret Alias
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Re: Valens/Valentinus, Flora/Florinus and Marcus/Marcianus

Post by Secret Alias »

It's trying to understand how this literary fantasy world came to be. I know this is hard for people to understand. But most people treat these texts like prostitutes. They come and go like the Karma Chameleon. You know, if you think x about early Christianity you accept and mine the texts that support x's reality. But the source material wasn't transmitted to us directly. This is inevitably ignored in favor of getting a blowjob from the prostituted text.

But look at Irenaeus our earliest compilation of heresies. Brent and Tripp say that Adv Haer was arranged in such a way to reinforce the primacy of the Valentinians even making the Marcosians seem to be a subsect. Their arguments are sound. But why? Why would Adv Haer arrange the heresies in a misleading way? These are fascinating questions.

Moreover the question to what degree does Epiphanius get "in behind" the surviving Latin rescension? I think the remarkable suffix that he gives to make the adjective "Marcosian" makes a Rhegium provenance very likely. But was Irenaeus from the Greek colony or his source or the Marcosians? Questions upon questions.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Valens/Valentinus, Flora/Florinus and Marcus/Marcianus

Post by Secret Alias »

Everyone seems to have drawn from a lost heresiological edition and rearranged the order in different ways. Who wrote this core text? Probably Justin. But is that for sure? Then people added new reports and new heresies. But they also changed the order. Hippolytus had a Dositheus first ordering. Adversus Haereses updated the original by focusing on the Valentinians. But why are the Marcosians stuck behind the later Valentinians and then Simon starts a new list thereafter. Questions
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Valens/Valentinus, Flora/Florinus and Marcus/Marcianus

Post by Secret Alias »

One of the sources for Irenaeus appears to be ὁ θεοφιλὴς πρεσβύτης:

With good reason, therefore, and very fittingly, in reference to thy rash attempt, has that divine elders and preacher of the truth burst forth in verse against thee as follows:--
"Marcus, thou former of idols, inspector of portents, Skill'd in consulting the stars, and deep in the black arts of magic, Ever by tricks such as these confirming the doctrines of error, Furnishing signs unto those involved by thee in deception, Wonders of power that is utterly severed from God and apostate, Which Satan, thy true father, enables thee still to accomplish, By means of Azazel, that fallen and yet mighty angel,-- Thus making thee the precursor of his own impious actions." Such are the words of the saintly elder (ὁ θεοφιλὴς πρεσβύτης). And I shall endeavour to state the remainder of their mystical system, which runs out to great length, in brief compass, and to bring to the light what has for a long time been concealed. For in this way such things will become easily susceptible of exposure by all.
But the Latin text's amator Dei shows that the correct Greek is Theophilus https://books.google.com/books?id=ctg3A ... ed&f=false. Scholars don't think it is possible that Irenaeus could have been citing Theophilus whom they suppose to be a contemporary. But the citation could have been added later. I think it is Theophilus.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Valens/Valentinus, Flora/Florinus and Marcus/Marcianus

Post by Secret Alias »

This is also puzzling in the same section against Marcus:
The Greeks admit that, compared with anything primordial, it was recently—yesterday and the day before (χθὲς καὶ πρώην), as we say—that they first received sixteen letters from Cadmus. Then later, as time went on, they themselves invented the aspirates at one point and the double consonants at another, and they say that last of all Palamedes added the long vowels to these.
Harvey says this is a reference to Genesis 31:2. But this is not a direct quote of the LXX of Genesis 31:2 which reads " ἐχθὲς καὶ τρίτην ἡμέραν." It is rather a common expression used in Lucian for instance that means that something just happened. Nothing to do with Genesis. Likely another misrepresentation of Irenaeus's familiarity with Hebrew.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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