Papias and the disciples of the Lord.

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
John2
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Re: Papias and the disciples of the Lord.

Post by John2 »

Good stuff, DC. Thanks.

Regarding this part:
There is, of course, a Nazirite connection. Something like Rechabite lore could explain how James, a non-Levite person of Judean descent, who practiced a lifelong Nazirite vow, could be considered a "legitimate" priest. Remember who Hegesippus claims called out in alarm when James was being stoned? A Rechabite. I understand there is a connection between Rechabites and clothes cleaners (and the fuller's club). This is sometimes connected to the fact that, in the temple, if a priest, even the HP, should intentionally enter their holy place of duty in a defiled state, "their head is bashed in by clubs." Who yields them? Likely the Temple police. Were they Priests, Levites, or Rechabites? Now there is some light on the way James was "dispatched," by means of a fuller's club.
I would only add that I see the fuller's club as having more to do in James' case with the near-anarchic climate in the priesthood during this period described in the Talmud (including a reference to the servants -which would presumably include fullers- of the priestly family who killed James).

Pes. 57a:
With regard to the prominent priests and those like them, Abba Shaul ben Batnit said in the name of Abba Yosef ben Ḥanin: Woe is me due to the High Priests of the house of Baitos, woe is me due to their clubs. Woe is me due to the High Priests of the house of Ḥanin; woe is me due to their whispers and the rumors they spread. Woe is me due to the High Priests of the house of Katros; woe is me due to their pens that they use to write lies. Woe is me due to the servants of the High Priests of the house of Yishmael ben Piakhi; woe is me due to their fists. The power of these households stemmed from the fact that the fathers were High Priests, and their sons were the Temple treasurers, and their sons-in-law were Temple overseers [amarkalin]. And their servants strike the people with clubs, and otherwise act inappropriately.

https://www.sefaria.org/Pesachim.57a?lang=bi

This violence in the priesthood is supported by what Josephus says in Ant. 20.9.2 right after the James passage.
But as for the high priest Ananias [the father of the "house of Hanin" above] ... he also had servants who were very wicked, who joined themselves to the boldest sort of the people, and went to the thrashing-floors, and took away the tithes that belonged to the priests by violence, and did not refrain from beating such as would not give these tithes to them. So the other high priests acted in the like manner, as did those his servants, without any one being able to prohibit them.
EH 2.23.18:
And one of them, who was a fuller, took the club with which he beat out clothes and struck the just man on the head. And thus he suffered martyrdom.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
andrewcriddle
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Re: Papias and the disciples of the Lord.

Post by andrewcriddle »

Secret Alias wrote: Fri May 11, 2018 2:14 pm
In the sense that it was written by Jude, the brother of James
Ummm. You are stark raving mad. How did we get so many loony tunes at one forum? Really. I would love to hear why this mid-second century letter which bears a striking resemblance to Irenaeus's attacks against the Marcosians is 'genuinely' the product of a historical Judas from the first century let alone the alleged brother of James. That's nuts.
Jude was almost certainly used by 2 Peter. This makes a mid 2nd century date for Jude unlikely.
IF the (Ethiopic) Apocalypse of Peter (c 135 CE) used 2 Peter, (it is highly probable one used the other but the direction of influence is unclear), then 2 Peter is early 2nd century and Jude presumably late 1st century.

Andrew Criddle
Secret Alias
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Re: Papias and the disciples of the Lord.

Post by Secret Alias »

I am just wondering Andrew, why it is that anyone should believe in a natural or innocent cross dependence between early canonical texts. Let's grant that 2 Peter used Jude.
Of the several trouble spots within the General letters is the relationship between 2 Peter and Jude. The basic problem of this relationship is the similarities which exist in 2 Peter 2 and Jude regarding their treatment of certain libertine opponents (2 Peter 2:1-3:3; Jude 2-16).
Irenaeus's point - against the sects who came before him - was that there was this thing called the 'great Church' (to use Celsus's terminology). There was this connection between Jerusalem and Rome. At the same time his point is that both churches, as One Church, had a united front against 'the sects.' I don't any reason for needing Jude to be in 'general circulation' in this universal Church and then 2 Peter using Jude naturally. The universal Church is likely itself a fraud. There was no 'united front' against the heresies. As such both letters could have been developed in the late second century. The thing you are ignoring is the similarity that exists between both letters and Irenaeus. In order to accept that Jude is very old you'd also have to accept that Irenaeus's mission against 'the sects' had a precedent deep in a pre-existent Church. Anyone who really believes that is as stupid, biased and selfish as Giuseppe or any of the other morons at this forum ...
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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gmx
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Re: Papias and the disciples of the Lord.

Post by gmx »

Secret Alias wrote: Sat May 12, 2018 7:30 am I am just wondering Andrew, why it is that anyone should believe in a natural or innocent cross dependence between early canonical texts. Let's grant that 2 Peter used Jude.
Of the several trouble spots within the General letters is the relationship between 2 Peter and Jude. The basic problem of this relationship is the similarities which exist in 2 Peter 2 and Jude regarding their treatment of certain libertine opponents (2 Peter 2:1-3:3; Jude 2-16).
Irenaeus's point - against the sects who came before him - was that there was this thing called the 'great Church' (to use Celsus's terminology). There was this connection between Jerusalem and Rome. At the same time his point is that both churches, as One Church, had a united front against 'the sects.' I don't any reason for needing Jude to be in 'general circulation' in this universal Church and then 2 Peter using Jude naturally. The universal Church is likely itself a fraud. There was no 'united front' against the heresies. As such both letters could have been developed in the late second century. The thing you are ignoring is the similarity that exists between both letters and Irenaeus. In order to accept that Jude is very old you'd also have to accept that Irenaeus's mission against 'the sects' had a precedent deep in a pre-existent Church. Anyone who really believes that is as stupid, biased and selfish as Giuseppe or any of the other morons at this forum ...
Well that's somewhat uncharitable.
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Secret Alias
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Re: Papias and the disciples of the Lord.

Post by Secret Alias »

So what are you disputing? That people are morons for accepting that Irenaeus's war against heresies had a pre-history or that the forum is filled with idiots?
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Ulan
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Re: Papias and the disciples of the Lord.

Post by Ulan »

He was not really disputing anything. He said he found your statement somewhat uncharitable. Which is hard to argue against.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Papias and the disciples of the Lord.

Post by MrMacSon »

Secret Alias wrote: Sat May 12, 2018 7:30 am
... The universal [early] Church is likely itself a fraud. There was no 'united front' against the heresies ...
I agree wholeheartedly


For posterity -

.*.. The thing you are ignoring is the similarity that exists between both letters and Irenaeus. In order to accept that Jude is very old you'd also have to accept that Irenaeus's mission against 'the sects' had a precedent deep in a pre-existent Church. [. * moved: ... both letters [are more likely to] have been developed in the late second century ...]
.
gmx
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Re: Papias and the disciples of the Lord.

Post by gmx »

Secret Alias wrote: Tue May 15, 2018 2:25 am So what are you disputing? That people are morons for accepting that Irenaeus's war against heresies had a pre-history or that the forum is filled with idiots?
That the "forum is filled with idiots" is likely correct, given a certain vantage point, but it is not a useful observation IMO. Undoubtedly, the forum dredges up a fluid and diverse group of weirdos, all the way from qualified biblical scholars, to ancient history buffs, to believers looking to justify / explain their faith, to non-believers looking to destroy a faith, to those whose lives are influenced by Christian history and want / need to understand why.

I'm sure we could set a bar for determining posting privilege, and have the forum consist of three people who are genuinely committed to their own set of views, endlessly expressing them to crickets. I don't think that'd be sustainable. I believe the fact that there are idiots on the forum, who express their naive and unscientific views (such as I do), provokes discussion and helps develop a common basis / platform of understanding from which the forum can progressively elevate its level of discussion. While I can understand the frustration that process might cause to those more qualified, I don't see an inclusive alternative (given we're talking about a public forum).
I saw a Naked girl ,Slowly emerge in front of me,Greek hairstyle,Very beautiful,She has a beautiful [fine] profile.; She is fine in profile. the view of profile,hard to tell.
Secret Alias
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Re: Papias and the disciples of the Lord.

Post by Secret Alias »

Oh come on. The lasting legacy of this forum was to make it self-evident that human beings - by and large - are hopeless narcissists. They don't come to the forum to learn but to expound, even though these people are the furthest thing from experts in the field. My years spent here anticipated the 'hillbilly electorate' that brought Trump into power. People have no deference to expertise. They don't feel knowledge is at all necessary to arrive at the truth or even something as simple as 'the right decision.' Life is a lottery apparently. You just 'pick your number' and wait for it to be called and hope you 'get lucky.' That's why I've grown to prefer sports and training my son for sports. At least where physical activity is involved there's right and wrong, good and bad ...

Look at the debate between Trees of Life and Ben about what is and isn't possible from the Greek text of the Bible, or Ethan's erudite polemic about Zeus being a Hebrew name, or Giuseppe's endless posts denying the existence of Jesus via endless posts denying the existence of Jesus. If I don't mention other crackpots it's because my relentless insults (perhaps) have convinced them to tone down their partisan posting.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Papias and the disciples of the Lord.

Post by Secret Alias »

And I want to say I respect the forum, I am indebted to the forum for pointing out that human beings are worthless, hopeless idiots who will do anything to make 'the world' about 'them.' I mean that truly and sincerely. My hatred of humanity was only in its infancy when I came to the forum. Now it has matured to the point I only trust physical activities. Want to settle the debate between the Arians and the Orthodox? Have a boxing match. More honest way of approaching matters than actual debate because debates are never fair, never a level playing field. I used to think the hopelessly biased debate preserved in De Recta in Deum Fide was a fiction because it was so biased. Not so any more. I hope that the Vatican Library will make the Latin counter-version of the Dispute at Barcelona widely available https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputation_of_Barcelona exposing this text as another contrivance. Looking at Israeli 'friends' on Facebook defend the slaughter in Gaza only adds fuel to the fire (= 'no one asks why were they at that fence?'). It's disgusting. All disgusting. The greatest argument against the existence of God is that we are all still standing. Although maybe God read Sartre and realizes that hell - the truest, most hellish hell - is continued existence in each other's company. "L'enfer, c'est les autres" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Exit
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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