The Arch-Heretic’s brave and pious Gospel

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
Posts: 2110
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:19 pm
Location: Leipzig, Germany
Contact:

Re: The Arch-Heretic’s brave and pious Gospel

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Secret Alias wrote:But I don't think I am being understood again (or perhaps this post is suffering from my unwarranted assumption that I can understand all that someone has wrote in a nanosecond of attention). Tertullian is clearly not citing Marcion. He's citing his own gospel. Epiphanius confuses the matter because he's a careless idiot (see here http://stephanhuller.blogspot.com/2017/ ... nders.html).
I understand you very well. But my assumptions in this thread are based on leading Marcionite experts.

Klinghardt on that
(2) Besides in the main sources also testified in manuscripts of the so called "Western Text" (D it sy).
...
Testified: (ÜZ) Congruent testimony of two or more of the main sources.


Second round: Marcion and the Foretelling of the Jewish scriptures :notworthy:

Ben C. Smith wrote:Luke 7.18-35, the inquiry of John the baptist.

24 Ἀπελθόντων δὲ τῶν ἀγγέλων Ἰωάνου ἤρξατο λέγειν πρὸς τοὺς ὄχλους περὶ Ἰωάνου Τί ἐξήλθατε εἰς τὴν ἔρημον θεάσασθαι; κάλαμον ὑπὸ ἀνέμου σαλευόμενον; 25 ἀλλὰ τί ἐξήλθατε ἰδεῖν; ἄνθρωπον ἐν μαλακοῖς ἱματίοις ἠμφιεσμένον; ἰδοὺ οἱ ἐν ἱματισμῷ ἐνδόξῳ καὶ τρυφῇ ὑπάρχοντες ἐν τοῖς βασιλείοις εἰσίν. 26 ἀλλὰ τί ἐξήλθατε ἰδεῖν; προφήτην; ναί, λέγω ὑμῖν, καὶ περισσότερον προφήτου. 27 οὗτός ἐστιν περὶ οὗ γέγραπται Ἰδοὺ ἀποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου πρὸ προσώπου σου, ὃς κατασκευάσει τὴν ὁδόν σου ἔμπροσθέν σου. 28 λέγω ὑμῖν, μείζων ἐν γεννητοῖς γυναικῶν Ἰωάνου οὐδείς ἐστιν· ὁ δὲ μικρότερος ἐν τῇ βασιλείᾳ τοῦ Θεοῦ μείζων αὐτοῦ ἐστιν. 24 When John’s messengers had departed, he began to tell the multitudes about John,What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken by the wind? 25 But what did you go out to see? A man clothed in soft clothing? Behold, those who are gorgeously dressed, and live delicately, are in kings’ courts. 26 But what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and much more than a prophet. 27 This is he of whom it is written, ‘Behold, I send my messenger before your face, who will prepare your way before you.’ 28 “For I tell you, among those who are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptizer, yet he who is least in God’s Kingdom is greater than he.

[/size]
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: The Arch-Heretic’s brave and pious Gospel

Post by Secret Alias »

I don't understand why an appeal to authority would apply here. TERTULLIAN DOES NOT CITE THE PASSAGE AS A MARCIONITE READING AND RATHER EMBRACES IT AS A GOOD READING AFTER SAYING HE'S GOING TO EXPOSE MARCIONITE ADULTERATION. So now it's cop out time? "The experts have decided ..." Come on. They almost inevitably end up deciding on behalf of whatever leads to them fulfilling the 11th commandment - publish something!
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: The Arch-Heretic’s brave and pious Gospel

Post by Secret Alias »

And this bullshit:

Testified: (ÜZ) Congruent testimony of two or more of the main sources.

How is that an agreement? In order to make this an "agreement" we'd have to suppose that every gospel citation that T puts forward and doesn't add the caveat "my reading" "the correct reading" is a reference to the Marcionite gospel. This is madness! Who writes like this? Who talks like this? "My wife" "my dog" "my favorite restaurant." The facts are that T puts forward the reading approvingly and E rejects the reading as a Marcionite corruption. The dangers of superficiality. This is not an agreement.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: The Arch-Heretic’s brave and pious Gospel

Post by Secret Alias »

And where's the discussion about any of this? I can see you're just going to rubber stamp every reading to get to predetermined point. Why not spare us the suspense and get to your conclusions so we can get home from work earlier?
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
davidbrainerd
Posts: 319
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:37 pm

Re: The Arch-Heretic’s brave and pious Gospel

Post by davidbrainerd »

Secret Alias wrote:And this bullshit:

Testified: (ÜZ) Congruent testimony of two or more of the main sources.

How is that an agreement? In order to make this an "agreement" we'd have to suppose that every gospel citation that T puts forward and doesn't add the caveat "my reading" "the correct reading" is a reference to the Marcionite gospel. This is madness! Who writes like this? Who talks like this? "My wife" "my dog" "my favorite restaurant." The facts are that T puts forward the reading approvingly and E rejects the reading as a Marcionite corruption. The dangers of superficiality. This is not an agreement.
I guess Stephan has someone holding a gun to his head saying "Convince everyone to stop trying to reconstruct Marcion's gospel or I'll pull the trigger." Otherwise such a violent reaction and an obsession to convince everyone to stop is hard to explain, except perhaps on the grounds that he sees himself as the apostle of the OT god and must wipe Marcionism from existence.
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: The Arch-Heretic’s brave and pious Gospel

Post by Secret Alias »

So there is no difference between Tertullian's citation of the reading and Epiphanius's citation of the reading? Both of them acknowledge it as a Marcionite reading? This is sheer madness.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
Posts: 2110
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:19 pm
Location: Leipzig, Germany
Contact:

Re: The Arch-Heretic’s brave and pious Gospel

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

.
Stephan, you know better than I what the experts would say. Tertullian claimed that he used GMarcion itself to make his arguments against Marcion. Therefore it is no need that he explicitly mentioned that a quote is from GMarcion.

This is not a thread to make conclusions. It is simply a reminder of what we can read in the reconstructions of GMarcion against the wild speculations about him. To enjoy it or to get puzzled or to get embarassed ...

Third round: Marcion and the full empowerment of the Twelve :scratch:

Luke changed Mark a little bit to make fully clear that the Twelve are completely empowered by Jesus with the divine “dunamis” and that they preached the adequate Gospel.
Mark 3:13 And he went up on the mountain and called to him those whom he desired, and they came to him. 14 And he appointed twelve so that they might be with him and he might send them out to preach 15 and have authority to cast out demons.
Mark 6:7 And he called the twelve and began to send them out two by two, and gave them authority over the unclean spirits. ... 12 So they went out and proclaimed that people should repent. 13 And they cast out many demons and anointed with oil many who were sick and healed them.
Luke 9:1 And he called the twelve together and gave them power and authority over all demons and to cure diseases, 2 and he sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal. ... 6 And they departed and went through the villages, preaching the gospel and healing everywhere.

As does Marcion
Ben C. Smith wrote:Luke 9.1-11, the mission of the twelve, John the baptist risen.

1 Συνκαλεσάμενος δὲ τοὺς δώδεκα ἔδωκεν αὐτοῖς δύναμιν καὶ ἐξουσίαν ἐπὶ πάντα τὰ δαιμόνια καὶ νόσους θεραπεύειν· 2 καὶ ἀπέστειλεν αὐτοὺς κηρύσσειν τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ Θεοῦ καὶ ἰᾶσθαι, 3 καὶ εἶπεν πρὸς αὐτούς Μηδὲν αἴρετε εἰς τὴν ὁδόν, μήτε ῥάβδον μήτε πήραν μήτε ἄρτον μήτε ἀργύριον μήτε ἀνὰ δύο χιτῶνας ἔχειν. 4 καὶ εἰς ἣν ἂν οἰκίαν εἰσέλθητε, ἐκεῖ μένετε καὶ ἐκεῖθεν ἐξέρχεσθε. 5 καὶ ὅσοι ἂν μὴ δέχωνται ὑμᾶς, ἐξερχόμενοι ἀπὸ τῆς πόλεως ἐκείνης τὸν κονιορτὸν ἀπὸ τῶν ποδῶν ὑμῶν ἀποτινάσσετε [Marcion: ἀποτινάξατε] εἰς μαρτύριον ἐπ’ αὐτούς. 6 ἐξερχόμενοι δὲ διήρχοντο κατὰ πόλεις καὶ τὰς κώμας εὐαγγελιζόμενοι καὶ θεραπεύοντες πανταχοῦ. 1 He called the twelve together, and gave them power and authority over all demons, and to cure diseases. 2 He sent them out to preach God’s Kingdom and to heal the sick. 3 He said to them, “Take nothing for your journey—no staffs, nor wallet, nor bread, nor money. Don’t have two coats each. 4 Into whatever house you enter, stay there, and depart from there. 5 As many as don’t receive you, when you depart from that city, shake off even the dust from your feet for a testimony against them.” 6 They departed and went throughout cities and the villages, preaching the Good News and healing everywhere.

[/size]
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: The Arch-Heretic’s brave and pious Gospel

Post by Secret Alias »

Therefore it is no need that he explicitly mentioned that a quote is from GMarcion.
But the supposition that every scriptural reference = a reference from or to Marcion's gospel is highly suspect given the amount of times (a) these are rare variants as the present example is and (b) Tertullian cites that approvingly after saying that the purpose of the study is to uncover Marcionite adulteration of Luke. Luke doesn't have this reading. It isn't attested anywhere. So there is an obvious disconnect. Epiphanius on the other hand operates completely logically and following the stated purpose of his work to list Marcionite variants. So to read Tertullian blindly as 'an ancient author citing every Marcionite reading falls into difficulties given the fact that Tertullian's list and Epiphanius's list are nowhere near being the same. How is that explained?

In this case E cites the variant as Marcionite but T accepts it and says nothing about it being a variant. However there are dozens of examples where T mentions a reference (against supposedly every T reference = a Marcionite reading) and E does not list it as a Marcionite variant. E also makes dozens of references to readings which are ignored by T. Moreover other sources mention Marcionite readings ignored by T and E. The only sensible explanation is that neither T nor E are systematically going through 'Marcionite Luke.' This is an absurdity. If this were true there would be consistent parallels between the two authors. Given that there are only the barest of agreements the best explanation is that T is not citing from the Marcionite gospel but his own and E is using T or T's source as one of his sources for compiling a list of Marcionite textual variants. This explains why E's list is not comprehensive and leaves out so many.

The experts are wrong because the experts need to get published (although I have to admit I do think there are good grounds for an article and a book simply calling out this Marcionite racket and saying what a scam it really is).
This is not a thread to make conclusions.
People who say they aren't trying to make conclusions are just pleading for others not to get in the way of their conclusions.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: The Arch-Heretic’s brave and pious Gospel

Post by Secret Alias »

Since you only trust "experts" Lieu provides another example of the incongruity:
On the other hand, there are some incidences where the witnesses are obscure or are contradictory; whereas Tertullian claims that Marcion omitted the division Jesus garments, ' because of the prophecy of the psalm' (Luke 23.34b; AM IV.) Epiphanius explicitly mentions this in his characteristically compressed citation, 'And coming to the place named Skull they crucified him and divided his garments and the sun darkened." (Luke 23.33a, 34b, 44).38 Epiphanius then continues with the abrupt remark, 'he excised “Today you will be with me in Paradise”' (Luke 23.43), to which he adds the comment, 'You have taken away from yourself the entry into Paradise for you will not enter neither will you allow those with you' (Pan. 42.11.17, SR72); however, whether that signals the absence of the whole of the preceding account of the penitent thief, which is also ignored by Tertullian which is also ignored by Tertullian or only its climactic promise must remain obscure
.

It's not that obscure. They are clearly contradictory otherwise she wouldn't have brought it up. It just takes balls to admit this whole charade is a farce.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
iskander
Posts: 2091
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:38 pm

Re: The Arch-Heretic’s brave and pious Gospel

Post by iskander »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:.
..
I would claim it is a similar situation with GLuke and GMarcion. The little agreements with GMatthew and GMark may be very interesting, but overall GMarcion’s brother is GLuke.

Luke, the probably most pious Evangelist, and Marcion, the so called Arch Heretic, share large parts of the same text. :cheers:
Luke is the mother of Marcion ;) .
Bernard Muller wrote:So, it is so, Marcion's gospel seemed to Irenaeus a truncated version of gLuke. I agree with that.
...
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3176&p=70505#p70505
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvc7ql44T2A
Round and round and round we go
Until for evermore
Once we were behind
But now we find we are
http://www.disneyclips.com/lyrics/alicelyrics6.html
Post Reply