The Arch-Heretic’s brave and pious Gospel

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: The Arch-Heretic’s brave and pious Gospel

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Secret Alias wrote:Since you only trust "experts" Lieu provides another example of the incongruity:
It seems it’s not easy for you to get my point here. I’m fully open to the idea that the attestions and claims of Tertullian, Epiphanius and Co. about Marcion and GMarcion could be more or less incorrect. But I do not think that you can say that some of them are correct (those you like) and some of them not (those you dislike). My impression is a bit that this is what you do. You accept some claims about Marcion and Gmarcion and reject some others. And then you speculate about a Marcion how you wish him to be.

(For the purpose of the thread I accept the usual reconstruction of GMarcion.)

Fourth round: Marcion and the appearance of Moses and Elijah in Glory

Or as Ephrem said
But concerning Moses and Elijah who were found on the mountain in company with Jesus, what do the Marcionites say that they were doing in his presence?
Note the order:
Mark: Elijah first (“with” Moses)
Marcion: Moses first ("Moses and Elijah")

Ben C. Smith wrote:Luke 9.28-36, the transfiguration.

28 Ἐγένετο δὲ μετὰ τοὺς λόγους τούτους ὡσεὶ ἡμέραι ὀκτὼ, καὶ παραλαβὼν Πέτρον καὶ Ἰωάνην καὶ Ἰάκωβον ἀνέβη εἰς τὸ ὄρος προσεύξασθαι. 29 καὶ ἐγένετο ἐν τῷ προσεύχεσθαι αὐτὸν τὸ εἶδος τοῦ προσώπου αὐτοῦ ἕτερον καὶ ὁ ἱματισμὸς αὐτοῦ λευκὸς ἐξαστράπτων. 30 καὶ ἰδοὺ ἄνδρες δύο συνελάλουν αὐτῷ, οἵτινες ἦσαν Μωϋσῆς καὶ Ἡλείας, 31 οἳ ὀφθέντες ἐν δόξῃ ἔλεγον τὴν ἔξοδον αὐτοῦ, ἣν ἤμελλεν πληροῦν ἐν Ἱερουσαλήμ. 28 About eight days after these sayings, he took with him Peter, John, and James, and went up onto the mountain to pray. 29 As he was praying, the appearance of his face was altered, and his clothing became white and dazzling. 30 Behold, two men were talking with him, who were Moses and Elijah, 31 who appeared in glory, and spoke of his departure, which he was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.

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Secret Alias
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Re: The Arch-Heretic’s brave and pious Gospel

Post by Secret Alias »

For the purpose of the thread I accept the usual reconstruction of GMarcion
But that is how misunderstandings and misrepresentations are kept alive. Convenience
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: The Arch-Heretic’s brave and pious Gospel

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Fifth round: The Passover with the "Apostles" and the Body and Blood of Christ :popcorn: :cheers:


:silenced:
Ben C. Smith wrote:Luke 22.14-20, bread and cup.

14 Καὶ ὅτε ἐγένετο ἡ ὥρα, ἀνέπεσεν, καὶ οἱ δώδεκα ἀπόστολοι σὺν αὐτῷ. 15 καὶ εἶπεν πρὸς αὐτούς Ἐπιθυμίᾳ ἐπεθύμησα τοῦτο τὸ πάσχα φαγεῖν μεθ’ ὑμῶν πρὸ τοῦ με παθεῖν· 16 λέγω γὰρ ὑμῖν ὅτι οὐκέτι οὐ μὴ φάγω αὐτὸ ἕως ὅτου πληρωθῇ ἐν τῇ βασιλείᾳ τοῦ Θεοῦ. 17 καὶ δεξάμενος ποτήριον εὐχαριστήσας εἶπεν Λάβετε τοῦτο καὶ διαμερίσατε εἰς ἑαυτούς· 18 λέγω γὰρ ὑμῖν, οὐ μὴ πίω ἀπὸ τοῦ νῦν ἀπὸ τοῦ γενήματος τῆς ἀμπέλου ἕως οὗ ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ Θεοῦ ἔλθῃ. 19 καὶ λαβὼν ἄρτον εὐχαριστήσας ἔκλασεν καὶ ἔδωκεν αὐτοῖς λέγων Τοῦτό ἐστιν τὸ σῶμά μου τὸ ὑπὲρ ὑμῶν διδόμενον· τοῦτο ποιεῖτε εἰς τὴν ἐμὴν ἀνάμνησιν. 20 καὶ τὸ ποτήριον ὡσαύτως μετὰ τὸ δειπνῆσαι, λέγων Τοῦτο τὸ ποτήριον ἡ καινὴ διαθήκη ἐν τῷ αἵματί μου, τὸ ὑπὲρ ὑμῶν ἐκχυννόμενον. 14 When the hour had come, he sat down with the twelve apostles. 15 He said to them, I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer, 16 for I tell you, I will no longer by any means eat of it until it is fulfilled in God’s Kingdom.” 17 He received a cup, and when he had given thanks, he said, “Take this, and share it among yourselves, 18 for I tell you, I will not drink at all again from the fruit of the vine, until God’s Kingdom comes.” 19 He, after they had dined, took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke, and gave it to them, saying,This is my body which is given for you. Do this in memory of me.” 20 Likewise, he took the cup after supper, saying,This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

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Ulan
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Re: The Arch-Heretic’s brave and pious Gospel

Post by Ulan »

I guess the title of this thread contains a false friend? The "brave" here, is it supposed to mean "well-behaved" or "following the rules", like in German?
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Re: The Arch-Heretic’s brave and pious Gospel

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Ulan wrote:I guess the title of this thread contains a false friend? The "brave" here, is it supposed to mean "well-behaved" or "following the rules", like in German?
Ironically, it was exactly this mistake that leads to the title of the thread. But I recognized that and thought that the “brave” could stand for some other Marcionite stories as the following one:

Sixth round: Luke and the Righteousness that comes by Works of the Law and how Marcion presumably slipped away :mrgreen:

Ben C. Smith wrote:Luke 10.21-42, revealed to babes, blessed are your eyes and ears, the greatest commandment, the good Samaritan, Mary and Martha.

25 Καὶ ἰδοὺ νομικός τις ἀνέστη ἐκπειράζων αὐτὸν λέγων Διδάσκαλε, τί ποιήσας ζωὴν αἰώνιον κληρονομήσω; 26 ὁ δὲ εἶπεν πρὸς αὐτόν Ἐν τῷ νόμῳ τί γέγραπται; πῶς ἀναγινώσκεις; 27 ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν Ἀγαπήσεις Κύριον τὸν Θεόν σου ἐξ ὅλης τῆς καρδίας σου καὶ ἐν ὅλ τ ψυχ σου [Marcion: ἐξ ὅλης τῆς ψυχῆς σου] καὶ ἐν ὅλ τ ἰσχύϊ [Marcion: ὅλης τὴς ἰσχύος] σου καὶ ἐν ὅλῃ τῇ διανοίᾳ σου, καὶ τὸν πλησίον σου ὡς σεαυτόν. 28 εἶπεν δὲ αὐτῷ Ὀρθῶς ἀπεκρίθης [Marcion: εἶπεςτοῦτο ποίει καὶ ζήσῃ. 25 Behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 He said to him, What is written in the law? How do you read it?” 27 He answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” 28 He said to him,You have answered [Marcion: spoken] correctly. Do this, and you will live.

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Tertullian, Against Marcion 4.25

In the true Gospel, a certain doctor of the law comes to the Lord and asks, "What shall I do to inherit life?" In the heretical gospel life only is mentioned, without the attribute eternal; so that the lawyer seems to have consulted Christ simply about the life which the Creator in the law promises to prolong,(1) and the Lord to have therefore answered him according to the law, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength,"(2) since the question was concerning the conditions of mere life.

Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: The Arch-Heretic’s brave and pious Gospel

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

.
Seventh round: Marcion and Christ's flesh and bones :wtf:
Ben C. Smith wrote:Luke 24.36-53, the appearance to the eleven in Jerusalem, the ascension.


36 Ταῦτα δὲ αὐτῶν λαλούντων αὐτὸς ἔστη ἐν μέσῳ αὐτῶν [[καὶ λέγει αὐτοῖς Εἰρήνη ὑμῖν]]. 37 πτοηθέντες δὲ καὶ ἔμφοβοι γενόμενοι ἐδόκουν πνεῦμα [Marcion: φάντασμα] θεωρεῖν. 38 καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Τί τεταραγμένοι ἐστέ, καὶ διὰ τί διαλογισμοὶ ἀναβαίνουσιν ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ ὑμῶν; 39 ἴδετε τὰς χεῖράς μου καὶ τοὺς πόδας μου, ὅτι ἐγώ εἰμι αὐτός• ~ψηλαφήσατέ με καὶ ἴδετε~, ὅτι πνεῦμα ~σάρκα καὶ~ ὀστέα οὐκ ἔχει καθὼς ἐμὲ θεωρεῖτε ἔχοντα. 40 [[καὶ τοῦτο εἰπὼν ἔδειξεν αὐτοῖς τὰς χεῖρας καὶ τοὺς πόδας.]] 36 As they said these things, Jesus himself stood among them, and said to them, “Peace be to you.” 37 But they were terrified and filled with fear, and supposed that they had seen a spirit [Marcion: phantom]. 38 He said to them,Why are you troubled? Why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 See my hands and my feet, that it is truly me. ~Touch me and see~, for a spirit doesn’t have ~flesh and~ bones, as you see that I have.” 40 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet.

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It's party time :cheers:
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Epiphanius, Panarion 42.11.17: Scholion 78. 'Why are ye troubled? Behold my hands and my feet, for a spirit hath not bones as ye see me have.' (a) Elenchus 78. Who can fail to laugh at the driveller who has foolishly dragged himself and the souls of others down to hell? If he had not acknowledged these words his imposture would be plausible, and his dupes would be pardonable. (b) But now, since he acknowledged these texts and did not take them out, and his followers read them too, his sin and theirs remains and the fire is inescapable for him and them, since they have no excuse. For the Saviour has clearly taught that even after his resurrection he has bones and flesh, as he testified himself with the words, 'as ye see me have.'

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Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: The Arch-Heretic’s brave and pious Gospel

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

.
In this thread I didn't want to show contradictions between Marcion’s reconstructed gospel and his theology, but contradictions between Marcion’s reconstructed gospel and what is thought as his theology (based on the claims of Tertullian, Epiphanius and others).

But why shouldn’t this be the theology of later Marcionites who were influenced by gnosticism?

There is nothing in his gospel what contradicts Justin’s description of Marcion as Stephan summarized it
Secret Alias wrote:This is the real extent of what we can know was the accusation against Marcion in the earliest period which to my understanding amounts to him:

1. being of Pontus and a contemporary of Justin
2. being conceived by demons (δαιμόνων συλλήψεως)
3. having denied that God was the maker (ποιητὴν) of all things in heaven and earth and that the Christ predicted (προκηρυχθέντα) by the prophets is His Son preaching and persuading (πειθομένους) his disciples to believe in some other god greater (μείζονα) than the Demiurge god (δημιουργοῦ θεόν) and another son (ἕτερον υἱόν)
4. establishing a widespread (indeed global = κατὰ πᾶν γένος ἀνθρώπων) community of Χριστιανοὶ (or likely Chrestoi) as a philosophical sect (or heresy)
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