Trees, crosses, and outstretched hands.

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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mlinssen
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Re: Trees, crosses, and outstretched hands.

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22And they brought him to the place called Golgotha (which means Place of a Skull). 23And they offered him wine mixed with myrrh, but he did not take it. 24And they crucified him and divided his garments among them, casting lots for them, to decide what each should take. 25And it was the third hourd when they crucified him. 26And the inscription of the charge against him read, “The King of the Jews.” 27And with him they crucified two robbers, one on his right and one on his left.e 29And those who passed by derided him, wagging their heads and saying, “Aha! You who would destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, 30save yourself, and come down from the cross!” 31So also the chief priests with the scribes mocked him to one another, saying, “He saved others; he cannot save himself. 32Let the Christ, the King of Israel, come down now from the cross that we may see and believe.” Those who were crucified with him also reviled him.

The Death of Jesus

33And when the sixth hourf had come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.g 34And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” 35And some of the bystanders hearing it said, “Behold, he is calling Elijah.” 36And someone ran and filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on a reed and gave it to him to drink, saying, “Wait, let us see whether Elijah will come to take him down.” 37And Jesus uttered a loud cry and breathed his last. 38And the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. 39And when the centurion, who stood facing him, saw that in this way heh breathed his last, he said, “Truly this man was the Soni of God!”

6 hours. No wounds otherwise, just 'staurosised', εσταύρωσαν

What did he die from in 6 hours' time?
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DCHindley
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Re: Trees, crosses, and outstretched hands.

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mlinssen wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 3:03 pm6 hours. No wounds otherwise, just 'staurosised', εσταύρωσαν

What did he die from in 6 hours' time?
Apparently he did not have a warrior's physique, one that could endure very long exposed on a cross to die.

I would think that after the whipping, which was performed in a way that would prove fatal by the 40th lash without necessarily killing the person right away, the whipped person is erected on a stake/cross to ultimately die, serving as a warning to anyone else who was similarly inclined to do what the crucified man had done. Someone crucified without the whipping should take much longer to die on a stake/cross.

Why the whipping? This feature of Jesus' execution may not have been routine. Maybe it was specific to certain kinds of executions, say of rebels or royal pretenders. A royal pretender would be anyone who sought to establish rule of a Roman controlled region without Roman consent as had Herod and some of his sons and grandsons enjoyed.

Antigonus II was treated as a royal pretender, the Romans clearly not recognizing the legitimacy of his appointment as a client king by the Parthians. Antigonus II was whipped, which killed the man, and his dead body was displayed on a stake/cross as a trophy. So a whipping surely can kill you.

FWIW, Paul claimed (or was portrayed as claiming) to have been whipped with 39 lashes and survived. I guess that means that 40 lashes was considered a death sentence fully carried out. If anyone survived that it was probably rare, or recovery time would be lengthy for sure. BTW, this would have had to have been a sentence made by a Judean court. Every Greek town with over ten residents of Judean descent was allowed to have one, as Judeans were not citizens of the town but "foreigners." Fabian Udoh, I think it was, or perhaps the revised translation of the 2nd German edition of E. Schuerer's History of the Jewish People, showed how these Judean courts were set up and operated with imperial consent.

Roman whippings could have been different than whipping by these resident Judean courts.
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mlinssen
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Re: Trees, crosses, and outstretched hands.

Post by mlinssen »

DCHindley wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 10:51 am
mlinssen wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 3:03 pm6 hours. No wounds otherwise, just 'staurosised', εσταύρωσαν

What did he die from in 6 hours' time?
Apparently he did not have a warrior's physique, one that could endure very long exposed on a cross to die.

I would think that after the whipping, which was performed in a way that would prove fatal by the 40th lash without necessarily killing the person right away, the whipped person is erected on a stake/cross to ultimately die, serving as a warning to anyone else who was similarly inclined to do what the crucified man had done. Someone crucified without the whipping should take much longer to die on a stake/cross.
Unfortunately, as with much of the content in the NT, there are no specifics on the whipping of Jesus at all. In fact, it's almost an afterthought in Mark https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/mar/15/15/s_972015

Pilate is surprised about the early death https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/mar/15/44/s_972044 as well LOL.
Naturally, most of it doesn't make sense; if he were to have died of blood loss he should have lost consciousness but he speaks and even shouts just before he dies - it is all one great play with dramatic effects but let's just assume it all happened that way

The final cry would be consistent with being impaled and sinking just one last centimetre, piercing a crucial organ. That would also allow for the lucidity in the final moments
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