The Jerusalem Church after 70 CE

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
John2
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Re: The Jerusalem Church after 70 CE

Post by John2 »

It turns out that Stephen's version of the "the clouds of heaven" saying in Acts is actually the only one that says that Jesus was "standing" (and not sitting) at the right hand of God, and I see that there are ideas for why this is, such as it being because Jesus stood up from the throne to help Stephen. So the "standing" part isn't necessarily the "orthodox" version, since Luke and Mark and Matthew and Paul say "sitting."

I reckon Ben would disagree, but this "standing" saying (in reference to Jesus) seems similar to James 5:7-9:
Be patient, then, brothers and sisters, until the Lord’s coming. See how the farmer waits for the land to yield its valuable crop, patiently waiting for the autumn and spring rains. You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord’s coming is near. Don’t grumble against one another, brothers and sisters, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!


I recall that Ben sees all this as referring to God and not Jesus, but in the light of Revelation (and Dan. 7:9 and Phlp. 2:6) perhaps it could be both.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
John2
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Re: The Jerusalem Church after 70 CE

Post by John2 »

I noticed that Rev. 1:7 alludes to Daniel's "one like a son of man" ("Look, he is coming with the clouds"), and now I see that there are more direct references in Revelation to Jesus being Daniel's "one like a son of man" (along with another divine-like "First and Last" remark).

1:13-18:
... and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.

When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.


And 14:14-16 mentions that the "one like a son of man" was "sitting" in heaven (as per everyone except Stephen in Acts 7:55-56 and maybe James 5:9).
I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.
My impression is that (Jewish) Christianity (whether it invented it or not) is a mixture of Davidic messianic expectation and Daniel's divine/angelic "one like a son of man," and I gather that this idea "worked" via adoptionism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adoptionism

So Jesus was thought to be a human being, but "Christ" was an angel (i.e., Daniel's one like a son of man, i.e., the archangel Michael). As Epiphanius puts it in Pan. 30:
And they say that for this reason Jesus was born of the seed of man and that he was chosen and that he therefore was called the Son of God according to the election because Christ descended upon him from above in the form of a dove. They do not say that he was born of God the Father but that he was created as one of the archangels (and even higher) and that he is Lord over the angels as also over everything the Almighty has created.
This is in keeping with what Epiphanius cites from their gospel about Jesus' baptism (which says, in keeping with Ps. 2:7, "Today I have begotten you").
And after it says many things it states: When the people were being baptized, Jesus came too and was baptized by John. And as he came up out of the water the heavens opened, and he saw the holy spirit of God in the image of a dove coming down and coming onto him. And there was a voice from heaven saying: You are my beloved son. With you I am pleased. And again: Today I have begotten you.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
John2
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Re: The Jerusalem Church after 70 CE

Post by John2 »

It looks like I'm in the minority on the Jesus = Michael idea, but Hannah has a book that surveys the appearances of Michael in ancient writings and the evolution of the idea that Jesus is Michael from Lueken (1898) to Hannah's time (1999).

https://books.google.com/books?id=qKtXV ... US&f=false

And I find myself in agreement with this argument in an online discussion of the issue here:
Biblical basis that Michael is another name for Jesus are numerous. The belief that one of Jesus' many names is Michael by itself does not mean the rejection of Jesus' divinity or the Trinity.

1.Michael is referred to as "the great prince" (Dan 12:1), Gabriel told Daniel "except Michael your prince" (Dan 10:21). Angels are rarely referred to as princes, certainly not as our prince. However, Isaiah 9:6 states of Jesus, "His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace"

2.Archangel means the chief of angels. The word Archangel is mentioned twice in the Bible (Jude 9, 1 Thess 4:16), one time applied directly to Michael, both times appearing in singular form. Gabriel actually is never specified as an Archangel in the Bible, only according to tradition. Further, Michael is never actually described in the Bible as an angel, only as Archangel and prince. No evidence in the Bible to show that Gabriel is his equal.

3.Jesus is called the Angel of the Lord in many instances of the Bible. Angel can also mean messenger. Neither names imply that Jesus is a literal angel or creation.

4.Joshua meets an unnamed Man who calls Himself the "Commander of the army of the Lord" in Joshua 5:14. Jesus is this commander and the army of the Lord are His angels.

14 So He said, "No, as Commander of the army of the Lord I have now come." And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped, and said to Him, "What does my Lord say to His servant?" 15 The Commander of the Lord's army said to Joshua, "Take your sandal off your foot, for the place where you stand is holy."

5.The original controversy in heaven was between Jesus and Satan. Satan wanted to be like the Most High. In such a pivotal battle, "Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought" (Rev 12:7). If this was not Jesus Himself, where was He? Is He not the commander of the Lord's army? Was He not at Joshua's battles?

6.Some Christians question why Michael would say in Jude 9 "The Lord rebuke you!" if he is God. But in Zechariah 3:2, God says the same words "The Lord rebuke you, Satan!"

7.Finally who will deliver us in the end? Is it not Jesus Himself?

(Dan 12:1) At that time Michael shall stand up, the great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered.

Compare this with:

(Rev 19:11-14) Now I saw the heaven open, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on Him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war... And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean followed Him on white horses.

https://christianity.stackexchange.com/ ... is-michael
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
John2
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Re: The Jerusalem Church after 70 CE

Post by John2 »

I've been thinking about the "standing" references in Acts 7:55-56 and James 5:9 more and now I don't think one has anything to do with the other. The version in Acts is an anomaly since it is the only source that says that Jesus was "standing" rather than sitting at the right hand of God, while the reference in James makes sense in its context because it says the Judge (however "Judge" is understood) is "standing at the door" rather than at the right hand of God.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
John2
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Re: The Jerusalem Church after 70 CE

Post by John2 »

I'm surprised Boyarin doesn't have much to say about Revelation (at least in The Jewish Gospels). I think it supports the case he is making from other sources, which he sums up on page 33:
At a certain point these traditions [about Daniel's "one like a son of man"] became merged in Jewish minds with the expectation of a return of a Davidic king, and the idea of a divine-human Messiah was born. This figure was then named "Son of Man," alluding to his origins in the divine figure named "one like a Son of Man/a human being" in Daniel. In other words, a simile, a God who looks like a human being (literally Son of Man) has become the name for that God, who is now called "Son of Man," a reference to his human-appearing divinity.


And from the Jewish Christian end, these are key elements shared by Hegesippus:
... one’s coming to give to every man according to his works ... what is the gate of Jesus? ... "Jesus, the Son of Man ... is about to come upon the clouds of heaven" ... many were fully convinced and gloried in the testimony of James, and said, "Hosanna to the Son of David."
and Revelation:
Look, he is coming with the clouds ... among the lampstands was someone like a son of man ... “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades ... I will repay each of you according to your deeds" ... These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open ... "Yes, I am coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
Last edited by John2 on Thu Jul 27, 2017 1:10 pm, edited 3 times in total.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
John2
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Re: The Jerusalem Church after 70 CE

Post by John2 »

So I'm thinking that if this was how the situation was understood in (Jewish) Christian writings from the late first century CE to the mid second century CE, why wouldn't this be the situation in the earlier letters of James and Paul?

James 5:7-9:
Be patient, then, brothers and sisters, until the Lord’s coming. See how the farmer waits for the land to yield its valuable crop, patiently waiting for the autumn and spring rains. You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord’s coming is near. Don’t grumble against one another, brothers and sisters, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!
1Thess. 4:15-17:
According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
John2
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Re: The Jerusalem Church after 70 CE

Post by John2 »

Ben once pointed out, in a discussion we had about whether or not the coming of "the Lord" and "the Judge" in James 5:7-9 refers to God or Jesus, that James 4:12 says:
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy.
I don't think it's either/or anymore. It looks like Jewish Christians were binitarians (based on the two thrones in Dan. 7:9, as Boyarin argues), and this could be why Paul says things like:

1 Cor. 10:2-5:
They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. They all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
and Php. 2:5-6:
...Christ Jesus, who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage...
And why Rev. 1:18 and 2:23-27 say:
I hold the keys of death and Hades ... I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds ... I have received authority from my Father.
and Rev. 20:4 says:
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge.
and Rev. 20:12-13 says:
The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.
and Rev 22:12-16 says:
Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End ... I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches.
Dan. 7:9-14:
As I looked, thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of Days took his seat ... The court was seated, and the books were opened ... and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshipped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
John2
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Re: The Jerusalem Church after 70 CE

Post by John2 »

I noticed that some translations of Dan. 7:14 say "served" or "obeyed" instead of "worshipped" (regarding the "one like a son of man"), so I was thinking maybe "worshipped" might be too strong of a word here, but apparently it is not, as Heiser, for example, notes:
... in Daniel 7:13-14 we are given a glimpse of God's throne room in heaven. Here and in Zechariah 9:9 we see the Messiah (Son of Man) being worshipped by all people, nations, and languages. Both of these passages are Messianic according to the Talmud, Sanhedrin 98a. The verb here "to serve" is the Aramaic word "pelach" which means to worship in its fullest sense. In Daniel 3:16-17, Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-Nego were thrown in the fiery furnace because they would not 'pelach' the false gods of Babylon. In Daniel 3:28, Nebuchadnezzar says that the three Hebrews will not 'pelach' any god but their own God.

https://books.google.com/books?id=HbcSC ... el&f=false
And Owen notes here in footnote 5 that:
The Aramaic verb pelach ("serve") could be translated "worshipped," which would be even more striking (cf. Dan. 3:28). Certainly there would be no expectation in the text that the Gentiles would one day "worship" the Jews alongside God. This is an important clue as to the meaning of the "son of man" image.

https://books.google.com/books?id=PW3ro ... el&f=false
This "important clue" is good point. And the passage from San. 98a that Heiser refers to is also interesting.
Rabbi Alexandri says: Rabbi Yehoshua ben Levi raises a contradiction between two depictions of the coming of the Messiah. It is written: “There came with the clouds of heaven, one like unto a son of man…and there was given him dominion and glory and a kingdom…his dominion is an everlasting dominion” (Daniel 7:13–14). And it is written: “Behold, your king will come to you; he is just and victorious; lowly and riding upon a donkey and upon a colt, the foal of a donkey” (Zechariah 9:9). Rabbi Alexandri explains: If the Jewish people merit redemption, the Messiah will come in a miraculous manner with the clouds of heaven. If they do not merit redemption, the Messiah will come lowly and riding upon a donkey.

https://www.sefaria.org/Sanhedrin.98a?lang=bi
Last edited by John2 on Thu Jul 27, 2017 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
John2
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Re: The Jerusalem Church after 70 CE

Post by John2 »

Revelation seems to be summed up in Matthew 13:41-43 (which is considered to be a Jewish Christian gospel).
The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will weed out of His kingdom every cause of sin and all who practice lawlessness. And they will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father.
And I was thinking about Heiser's note that, "In Daniel 3:16-17, Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-Nego were thrown in the fiery furnace because they would not 'pelach' the false gods of Babylon," and I wonder if this "thrown in the fiery furnace" imagery in Daniel could have inspired the "thrown into the lake of fire" imagery in Revelation. It would be in interesting inversion of the "fiery furnace" in Daniel, and Jesus says "fiery furnace" in Mt.13:42 instead of "lake of fire."

Dan. 3:6:
And whoever does not fall down and worship [other gods] shall immediately be cast into a burning fiery furnace.
Rev. 20:13-15:
... each person was judged according to what they had done ... Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
John2
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Re: The Jerusalem Church after 70 CE

Post by John2 »

iskander asked:
Did the failure to return end Jewish Christianity?
I've been thinking about what ended Jewish Christianity and I think the process started in the late second century CE when Irenaeus branded them as heretics. Irenaeus is the first Church father to mention Jewish Christians, and he does so in a negative light. Prior to this it was possible for a Jewish Christian like Hegesippus to say:
And the church of Corinth continued in the true faith until Primus was bishop in Corinth. I conversed with them on my way to Rome, and abode with the Corinthians many days, during which we were mutually refreshed in the true doctrine. And when I had come to Rome I remained there until Anicetus.
I think a Jewish Christian could say this in the mid second century CE (if perhaps with a touch of wishful thinking) given that the most popular gospel (and the one placed first in the canon) was Matthew, which is considered to be Jewish Christian, and I reckon that the letters of James and Jude and 1 Peter (which I view as being Jewish Christian as well) could also have been in use by this time (or in any event they were ultimately included in the canon), along with Revelation (which also seems Jewish Christian to me).

In this light, a considerable chunk of the NT is Jewish Christian, and I reckon that the James vs. Paul (i.e., works vs. faith) issue wasn't settled (at least for Orthodox Christians) until after Acts was written (which I view as being as late as c. 140 CE).

So by the late second century CE, Irenaeus (who, if I recall correctly, is the first to mention Acts and to promote a four gospel canon) was saying in Against Heresies 1.26.2:
Those who are called Ebionites agree that the world was made by God; but their opinions with respect to the Lord are similar to those of Cerinthus and Carpocrates. They use the Gospel according to Matthew only, and repudiate the Apostle Paul, maintaining that he was an apostate from the law. As to the prophetical writings, they endeavour to expound them in a somewhat singular manner: they practise circumcision, persevere in the observance of those customs which are enjoined by the law, and are so Judaic in their style of life, that they even adore Jerusalem as if it were the house of God.
So this was the beginning of the end of Jewish Christianity, in my view (in tandem with being labeled as heretics in Rabbinic Judaism). What fate could be more fitting for people who followed someone who said, "Foxes have dens and birds have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head."
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
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