What makes a writing "Fiction" versus "History"?

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lpetrich
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Re: What makes a writing "Fiction" versus "History"?

Post by lpetrich »

From Introduction: Was Christianity Too Improbable to be False?, by Richard Carrier, Would the Facts Be Checked? Note 5:
Unlike Luke, Herodotus often mentions his sources or methods (e.g. 2.123; 1.5, 4.195), or even names his sources (e.g. 1.20-21, 2.29, 4.14, 4.29, 5.86-87, 6.53-54, 8.55, 8.65), or gives different accounts of the same event (e.g. 1.3-5, 2.20-27, 5.86-87, 6.53-54, 7.148-152), and often expresses a healthy skepticism (e.g. 2.45, 3.16, 4.25, 4.31, 4.42, 4.95-96, 4.105, 5.86, 7.152). Yet Herodotus reports without a hint of doubt that, just a generation or two before he wrote, the temple of Delphi magically defended itself with animated armaments, lightning bolts, and collapsing cliffs; the sacred olive tree of Athens, which had been burned by the Persians, grew a new shoot an arm's length in a single day; a miraculous flood-tide wiped out an entire Persian contingent after they desecrated an image of Poseidon; a horse gave birth to a rabbit; and the Chersonesians witnessed a mass resurrection of cooked fish (8.37-38, 8.55, 8.129, 7.57, and 9.120, respectively).
Herodotus, The Histories, Book 1, chapter 1, section 0 -- one can search by section number, like for 9.120, with its resurrection of cooked fish (Herodotus, The Histories, Book 9, chapter 120), and 4.42, where he expresses skepticism about a purported circumnavigation of Africa (Herodotus, The Histories, Book 4, chapter 42):
wonder, then, at those who have mapped out and divided the world into Libya, Asia, and Europe; for the difference between them is great, seeing that in length Europe stretches along both the others together, and it appears to me to be wider beyond all comparison. [2] For Libya shows clearly that it is bounded by the sea, except where it borders on Asia. Necos king of Egypt first discovered this and made it known. When he had finished digging the canal which leads from the Nile to the Arabian Gulf, he sent Phoenicians in ships, instructing them to sail on their return voyage past the Pillars of Heracles until they came into the northern sea and so to Egypt. [3] So the Phoenicians set out from the Red Sea and sailed the southern sea; whenever autumn came they would put in and plant the land in whatever part of Libya they had reached, and there await the harvest; [4] then, having gathered the crop, they sailed on, so that after two years had passed, it was in the third that they rounded the pillars of Heracles and came to Egypt. There they said (what some may believe, though I do not) that in sailing around Libya they had the sun on their right hand.1

1 The detail which Herodotus does not believe incidentally confirms the story; as the ship sailed west round the Cape of Good Hope, the sun of the southern hemisphere would be on its right. Most authorities now accept the story of the circumnavigation.
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lpetrich
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Re: What makes a writing "Fiction" versus "History"?

Post by lpetrich »

Continuing with Greek Popular Biography: Romance, Contest, Gospel | Κέλσος, MF then notes: "The Multiformity of Popular-Novelistic Biography".

There are four canonical Gospels, with three of them being very obviously interdependent -- and numerous noncanonical ones.

MF notes that there are 2 versions of the Life of Aesop, 5 Greek versions of the Alexander Romance, and 2 versions of the Certamen.

MF then notes a certain Kurke:
“Whole episodes cycle in and out of the texts, and sometimes occupy different positions within the structure of the work. This striking feature suggests that the traditions about Aesop were perceived by their ancient readers/authors … to have a different status from high, canonical literary texts, which had to be treated with greater care and respect and transmitted in pristine form … The first of these features suggests a long-lived and robust oral tradition (or better, traditions) about Aesop; the second implies that even once some version of these traditions was committed to writing, the ongoing work of fashioning and refashioning tales about Aesop continued, probably through a lively interaction between oral traditions and highly permeable written versions.”
Much like the Gospels. For instance, the adulterous-woman story jumps around in some manuscripts.
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lpetrich
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Re: What makes a writing "Fiction" versus "History"?

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Also from Greek Popular Biography: Romance, Contest, Gospel | Κέλσος, about direct vs. indirect speech, MF quotes some statistics:
  • Callirhoe (F) 61.6%
  • Aseneth (F) 59.4%
  • The Protevangelium of James (F) 53.2%
  • Acts (-) 51.0%
  • Judith (F) 50.0%
  • Susanna (F) 46.0%
  • The Ephesian Tale (F) 38.9%
  • The Alexander Romance (F) 34.4%
  • Sallust, Catiline (H) 28.3%
  • 3 Maccabees (F) 21.5%
  • Sallust, Jugurtha (H) 17.3%
  • Plutarch, Alexander (H) 12.1%
  • Tacitus, Agricola (H) 11.5%
  • 2 Maccabees (H) 11.2%
  • Josephus, Jewish War I (H) 8.8%
  • Polybius, Histories I (H) trace
Notice how high Acts scores, well within the range of ancient fiction.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: What makes a writing "Fiction" versus "History"?

Post by neilgodfrey »

lpetrich wrote: Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:17 am From Introduction: Was Christianity Too Improbable to be False?, by Richard Carrier, Would the Facts Be Checked? Note 5:
. . . Yet Herodotus reports without a hint of doubt that, just a generation or two before he wrote, . . . the Chersonesians witnessed a mass resurrection of cooked fish (8.37-38, 8.55, 8.129, 7.57, and 9.120, respectively).
Omg, why the hell don't you actually read sources for yourself instead of your incessant quote mining and proof-texting.

Do you just believe anyone who says something that immediately satisfies what you already believe?

Check up those references in Perseus for yourself. Check to see if what you quote Carrier as saying is in fact true. He may be mistaken. He may be exaggerating.

You will find that just as I said, Herodotus does NOT write about miracles as if they really did happen in the same way gospel authors wrote about miracles.

On the resurrected fish, for example, he begins his story by saying:
It is related by the people of the Chersonese that a marvellous thing happened one of those who guarded Artayctes.
You don't find any phrase like that in any of the canonical gospels.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: What makes a writing "Fiction" versus "History"?

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lpetrich wrote: Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:17 am From Introduction: Was Christianity Too Improbable to be False?, by Richard Carrier, Would the Facts Be Checked? Note 5:
. . . Yet Herodotus reports without a hint of doubt that, just a generation or two before he wrote, . . . the sacred olive tree of Athens, which had been burned by the Persians, grew a new shoot an arm's length in a single day; . . .
So we take our friend lpetrich's advice and actually read for ourselves what the Perseus passage says:
I will tell why I have mentioned this. In that acropolis is a shrine of Erechtheus, called the “Earthborn,” and in the shrine are an olive tree and a pool of salt water. The story among the Athenians is that they were set there by Poseidon and Athena as tokens when they contended for the land. It happened that the olive tree was burnt by the barbarians with the rest of the sacred precinct, but on the day after its burning, when the Athenians ordered by the king to sacrifice went up to the sacred precinct, they saw a shoot of about a cubit's length sprung from the stump, and they reported this.
Herodotus does not write about it as a fact; he writes about it as a report that was believed among Athenians. We have no idea what the real author behind the narrative voice thought. He doesn't let on.
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lpetrich
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Re: What makes a writing "Fiction" versus "History"?

Post by lpetrich »

I will concede that that one was indirectly stated, but let's look at the rest of Richard Carrier's examples.

7.57
... When all had passed over and were ready for the road, a great portent appeared among them. Xerxes took no account of it, although it was easy to interpret: a mare gave birth to a hare. ...
Direct

8.37
Now when the barbarians drew near and could see the temple, the prophet, whose name was Aceratus, saw certain sacred arms, which no man might touch without sacrilege, brought out of the chamber within and laid before the shrine. [2] So he went to tell the Delphians of this miracle, but when the barbarians came with all speed near to the temple of Athena Pronaea, they were visited by miracles yet greater than the aforesaid. Marvellous indeed it is, that weapons of war should of their own motion appear lying outside in front of the shrine, but the visitation which followed was more wondrous than anything else ever seen. [3] When the barbarians were near to the temple of Athena Pronaea, they were struck by thunderbolts from the sky, and two peaks broken off from Parnassus came rushing among them with a mighty noise and overwhelmed many of them. In addition to this a shout and a cry of triumph were heard from the temple of Athena.
Direct

8.38
All of this together struck panic into the barbarians, and the Delphians, perceiving that they fled, descended upon them and killed a great number. The survivors fled straight to Boeotia. Those of the barbarians who returned said (as I have been told) that they had seen other divine signs besides what I have just described: two men-at-arms of stature greater than human,they said, had come after them, slaying and pursuing.
Indirect

8.55
(Athena's sacred olive tree) ... It happened that the olive tree was burnt by the barbarians with the rest of the sacred precinct, but on the day after its burning, when the Athenians ordered by the king to sacrifice went up to the sacred precinct, they saw a shoot of about a cubit's length sprung from the stump, and they reported this.
Direct

8.129
... But when Artabazus had besieged Potidaea for three months, there was a great ebb-tide in the sea which lasted for a long while, and when the foreigners saw that the sea was turned to a marsh, they prepared to pass over it into Pallene. [2] When they had made their way over two-fifths of it, however, and three yet remained to cross before they could be in Pallene, there came a great flood-tide, higher, as the people of the place say, than any one of the many that had been before. Some of them who did not know how to swim were drowned, and those who knew were slain by the Potidaeans, who came among them in boats. [3] The Potidaeans say that the cause of the high sea and flood and the Persian disaster lay in the fact that those same Persians who now perished in the sea had profaned the temple and the image of Poseidon which was in the suburb of the city. I think that in saying that this was the cause they are correct. Those who escaped alive were led away by Artabazus to Mardonius in Thessaly. This is how the men who had been the king's escort fared.
Direct

So Herodotus did mention some miracles directly, the way that the Gospels mention miracles.
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lpetrich
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Re: What makes a writing "Fiction" versus "History"?

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neilgodfrey wrote: Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:46 pm So we take our friend lpetrich's advice and actually read for ourselves what the Perseus passage says:
Sure thing.
I will tell why I have mentioned this. In that acropolis is a shrine of Erechtheus, called the “Earthborn,” and in the shrine are an olive tree and a pool of salt water. The story among the Athenians is that they were set there by Poseidon and Athena as tokens when they contended for the land.
He was describing how that olive tree and saltwater pool had originated.
It happened that the olive tree was burnt by the barbarians with the rest of the sacred precinct, but on the day after its burning, when the Athenians ordered by the king to sacrifice went up to the sacred precinct, they saw a shoot of about a cubit's length sprung from the stump, and they reported this.
He did not preface his mention of that sprouting with "The Athenians said that" or anything similar, so that's why I listed it as "direct" rather than "indirect".
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neilgodfrey
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Re: What makes a writing "Fiction" versus "History"?

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lpetrich wrote: Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:17 am From Introduction: Was Christianity Too Improbable to be False?, by Richard Carrier, Would the Facts Be Checked? Note 5:
. . . Yet Herodotus reports without a hint of doubt that, just a generation or two before he wrote, the temple of Delphi magically defended itself with animated armaments, lightning bolts, and collapsing cliffss. . . .
Quoting the relevant passage in translation, 8:37ff
When the barbarian assailants drew near and were in sight of the place, the Prophet, who was named Aceratus, beheld, in front of the temple, a portion of the sacred armour, which it was not lawful for any mortal hand to touch, lying upon the ground, removed from the inner shrine where it was wont to hang. Then went he and told the prodigy to the Delphians who had remained behind. Meanwhile the enemy pressed forward briskly, and had reached the shrine of Minerva Pronaia, when they were overtaken by other prodigies still more wonderful than the first. Truly it was marvel enough, when warlike harness was seen lying outside the temple, removed there by no power but its own; what followed, however, exceeded in strangeness all prodigies that had ever before been seen. The barbarians had just reached in their advance the chapel of Minerva Pronaia, when a storm of thunder burst suddenly over their heads- at the same time two crags split off from Mount Parnassus, and rolled down upon them with a loud noise, crushing vast numbers beneath their weight- while from the temple of Minerva there went up the war-cry and the shout of victory.

All these things together struck terror into the barbarians, who forthwith turned and fled. The Delphians, seeing this, came down from their hiding-places, and smote them with a great slaughter, from which such as escaped fled straight into Boeotia. These men, on their return, declared (as I am told) that besides the marvels mentioned above, they witnessed also other supernatural sights. Two armed warriors, they said, of a stature more than human, pursued after their flying ranks, pressing them close and slaying them.

These men, the Delphians maintain, were two Heroes belonging to the place- by name Phylacus and Autonous- each of whom has a sacred precinct near the temple; one, that of Phylacus, hard by the road which runs above the temple of Pronaia; the other, that of Autonous, near the Castalian spring, at the foot of the peak called Hyampeia. The blocks of stone which fell from Parnassus might still be seen in my day; they lay in the precinct of Pronaia, where they stopped, after rolling through the host of the barbarians. Thus was this body of men forced to retire from the temple.
Herodotus does express the narrative voice that does believe in the miracles surrounding the temple at Delphi but he also tells us that he is relying upon sources who claimed to be eyewitnesses and that what he believes is what the Delphians maintain. So he allows the reader to make up his and her own mind about what he believes and why (e.g the blocks of stone can be seen to this very day!)

That's the way a historian writes according to all passable conventions of historical writing: despite the bias of the historian the historian writes at arms length and allows the reader to understand the reason for a bias or belief, and is thus free to make up their own mind.

In fiction (and the gospels and Genesis and Exodus) the reader is simply told that as surely as the coach turned into a pumpkin at midnight so various other miracles really did happen.

It is also relevant to note that Herodotus is writing a work that some scholars have compared with the Primary History of the Old Testament. They argue that he is writing to demonstrate the power and will of Apollo in history, and that his temple at Delphi is a counterpart to the Jewish Temple at Jerusalem. That is, he is writing "theological 'history'", not "real" history anyway.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: What makes a writing "Fiction" versus "History"?

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lpetrich wrote: Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:56 pm So Herodotus did mention some miracles directly, the way that the Gospels mention miracles.
Some, yes, but that's not the argument, is it. But read on .... I have been posting other examples that include passages in a wider context than C's references in some cases while you have been posting your rebuttal.
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lpetrich
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Re: What makes a writing "Fiction" versus "History"?

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I wasn't sure whether Aceratus's account of the temple arms being moved would really qualify as a miracle, since it's too easy for someone to do. But it is clearly an indirect mention.

So instead of being all-direct, like the Gospels, or all-indirect, Herodotus's accounts of miracles are some of both.
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