Jesus and Joshua.

[Ben C. Smith]

I think 4Q175 could be relevant to this discussion. As I noted in another thread, 4Q175 is a collection of arguably messianic proof texts (two of which are applied to Jesus in later Christian writings), which include the prophet like Moses (Dt. 18:18-19), the Star Prophecy (Num. 24:15-17), a reference to the Levites (Dt. 33:8-11) and a reference to Joshua. As Vermes puts it, "The first group consists of two texts from Deuteronomy referring to the prophet similar to Moses; the second is an extract from a prophecy of Balaam about the Royal Messiah; the third is a blessing of the Levites, and, implicitly, the Priest-Messiah. The last group opens with a verse from Joshua."

So several arguably messianic elements are gathered here (whether they are applicable to one person or not), and the inclusion of a verse from Joshua (6:26) is interesting because not only does it connect him to these arguably messianic texts, it changes the original context of Jos. 6:26 from Jericho to Jerusalem.

So the elements of being a prophet/messiah figure and like Joshua are in 4Q175, and in the case of the Egyptian in Josephus, it is curious that he wanted to make the walls of Jerusalem fall down, since 4Q175 says, "they have rebuilt [this city and have set up for it] a wall and towers to make of it a stronghold of ungodliness in Israel" (and again the context of this is Jerusalem instead of Jericho).

Good points, and Kraft does mention 4QTestimonia/4Q175 in his article. I was on the fence about whether to include it. Do you have a transcript of it that you could post here? (I actually have a large photograph of this one from a lecture by Bruce Zuckerman that I attended when I was in college.)

[John2]

No, it's hard to find online. I have it at home (Vermes) and I've seen it in books online but I don't remember where. I didn't notice that Kraft link but I'm checking it out now. Here it is:

It might also prove interesting to test the possibility of such
a Joshua/Jesus messianology hovering somewhere in the background
of certain Qumran passages. <s>"4Q Testimonia"</s> in particular is
intriguing with its juxtaposition of the Mosaic prophet passage
from Dt 18.15 (and in a "Samaritan" text form -- cf. Ex 20.21), the
star & scepter oracle from Nu 24.15ff, a portion from the
Blessing on Levi in Dt 33.8ff, and a passage from the <s>"4Q
Psalms of Joshua"</s> material dealing with Joshua's curse on
Jericho (= Jerusalem ?; compare Cyril of Jerusalem). Similarly,
the "star & scepter" testimony is given in the <s>War Scroll</s>
in the context of the final battle between the forces of God and
the evil world dominion (cf <s>1QM</s> 11.6ff). It may well be
that the similarities suggested above are purely coincidental,
but one can only determine this by a serious grappling with the
available evidence.

[John2]

I can see the Hebrew and Martinez's translation on pages 356-357 here, if that helps.

https://books.google.com/books?id=6RfYx ... ez&f=false

[outhouse]

Where is this documented? Which Greek texts render an Aramaic version of the name before the LXX renders the Hebrew of the Pentateuch?

Jesus has historicity as Aramaic, but even if you dispute this, Aramaic and Koine were the working languages of Israel.

Koine was the working language of the Diaspora.

You would need to settle the debate of how much Hebrew was used in the Diaspora by Hellenistic Jews to determine the biblical Etymology for Joshua.

The part I am trying to implore is that this was not a static usage. There was no center or no single origin. You may have had Hebrew speaking Christians with their own origin, and Koine origins separately evolving in different communities, with the possibility of a mixture of each as it evolved. The majority should be Aramaic to Koine.

Evidence? more transliterations showing usage of the Septuagint, then a Hebrew source.

[Ben C. Smith]

I can see the Hebrew and Martinez's translation on pages 356-357 here, if that helps.

https://books.google.com/books?id=6RfYx ... ez&f=false

Thanks. I have added Martínez' translation to the OP (scroll down to the very bottom, in the ETA section).

[Ben C. Smith]

Jesus has historicity as Aramaic, but even if you dispute this, Aramaic and Koine were the working languages of Israel.

This can be completely true and still have no bearing on the etymology of Jesus from Hebrew to Greek.

Koine was the working language of the Diaspora.

Same comment as above.

You would need to settle the debate of how much Hebrew was used in the Diaspora by Hellenistic Jews to determine the biblical Etymology for Joshua.

No, what we need is evidence of the Aramaic Joshua being rendered in Greek as Ἰησοῦς before the Pentateuch was translated as the LXX. Do you have such evidence?

The part I am trying to implore is that this was not a static usage.

"Implore"? What?

There was no center or no single origin. You may have had Hebrew speaking Christians with their own origin, and Koine origins separately evolving in different communities, with the possibility of a mixture of each as it evolved. The majority should be Aramaic to Koine.

Hebrew speaking Christians? What on earth are you talking about? The transliteration of Hebrew Joshua as Greek Ἰησοῦς predates Christianity by centuries.

Evidence? more transliterations showing usage of the Septuagint, then a Hebrew source.

Okay, show me this evidence of which you speak.

[outhouse]

This can be completely true and still have no bearing on the etymology of Jesus from Hebrew to Greek.

.

What if it does have bearing? my point is this was done long before the NT authors used the Koine they plagiarized.

The NT authors are relying on the transliterated Yeshua into Koine, agreed.

Don't we see Semitisms applied to Aramaic in our earliest text [mark] when dealing with parables that are attributed to Jesus? there is no special significance ?

In no way am I promoting an Aramaic primacy of textual traditions.

[Ben C. Smith]

What if it does have bearing? my point is this was done long before the NT authors used the Koine they plagiarized.

Was it done before the LXX translated the Pentateuch?

The NT authors are relying on the transliterated Yeshua into Koine, agreed.

Don't we see Semitisms applied to Aramaic in our earliest text [mark] when dealing with parables that are attributed to Jesus? there is no special significance ?

For the etymology of Jesus? No, (obviously) there is no special significance, unless (obviously) you have specific evidence for an Aramaic origin that predates the LXX.

In no way am I promoting an Aramaic primacy of textual traditions.

I made a claim about the etymology of the Greek Ἰησοῦς. That claim was that Ἰησοῦς was a transliteration of the Hebrew יְהוֹשׁוּעַ. Do you still dispute that this is the most likely etymological source of Ἰησοῦς?

[Steven Avery]

...The pronunciation of YHWH seems too complicated to me to get off the fence, but here is a link to Gordon's argument.

Thanks John, for this, and linking to my post on the b-hebrew forum.

I actually think there are elements there that may need tweaking, that is quite an early article. And also now Nehemia is doing much more with the Masoretic Text manuscripts. Plus he explains how yahweh is not just wrong, it is on the wrong side of the spiritual street, jupiter. That is only the last couple of years.

At least there is enough there that some might be interested in studying and understanding.

Steven

[outhouse]

I made a claim about the etymology of the Greek Ἰησοῦς. That claim was that Ἰησοῦς was a transliteration of the Hebrew יְהוֹשׁוּעַ. Do you still dispute that this is the most likely etymological source of Ἰησοῦς?

Not really disputing the pre Christian transliterations.

My only point is that from the Christian origin, Koine speaking residents of The diaspora used a Koine religious text and applied to it, an Aramaic name.