George Young: Gospel of Mark as Satirical Polemic

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Re: George Young: Gospel of Mark as Satirical Polemic

Post by Peter Kirby »

Martin Klatt wrote: Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:48 pm
Peter Kirby wrote: Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:41 pm Cool, but that’s not what I meant by “find a parallel.”

A different text entirely, from the time period, known to be satire.
Isn't that the point that makes it difficult to identify texts from a distant period as being subtle satire? The past is like a different universe, translations become more inaccurate because of the time barrier. You try recognizing a text in a foreign language as being satire if you're only armed with very basic language skills. You will only succeed if it is in your face, if more subtle you will most likely miss the point completely.
I guess we could start with the "a different text entirely, from the time period," believed to be satire. ;)
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
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Re: George Young: Gospel of Mark as Satirical Polemic

Post by Martin Klatt »

Removed
Last edited by Martin Klatt on Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Giuseppe
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Re: George Young: Gospel of Mark as Satirical Polemic

Post by Giuseppe »

Porphyry could have said the same thing:
As if this isn’t enough, he calls it a “sea”—indeed, a stormy sea—a very angry sea which tosses them about in its waves causing them to fear for their lives. He does this, apparently, so that he can next show Christ miraculously causing the storm to cease and the sea to calm down, hence saving the disciples from the dangers of the swell. It is from fables like this one that we judge the gospel to be a cleverly woven curtain, each thread of which requires careful scrutiny.


https://isthatinthebible.wordpress.com/ ... f-galilee/
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Re: George Young: Gospel of Mark as Satirical Polemic

Post by Giuseppe »

And still another claim about the Gospel of Mark as ''theatre'':
Will he not open it wide as he might from his seat in the theatre ? Will he not speak with a sneer and hiss loudly? Will he not cry aloud to those who are near him ? Either when He called Peter Satan He was drunk and overcome with wine, and He spoke as though in a fit; or else, when He gave this same disciple the keys of the kingdom of heaven, He was painting dreams, in the imagination of His sleep. For pray how was Peter able to support the foundation of the Church, seeing that thousands of times he was readily shaken from his judgment ? What sort of firm reasoning can be detected in him, or where did he show any unshaken mental power, seeing that, though he heard what Jesus had said to him, he was terribly frightened because of a sorry maidservant, and three times foreswore himself, although no great necessity was laid upon him ? We conclude then that, if He was right in taking him up and calling him Satan, as having failed of the very essence of godliness, He was inconsistent, as though not knowing what He had done, in giving him the authority of leadership.

http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/macar ... iticus.htm

A case may be made that, according to Porphyry, the Gospel Jesus was really a satirist not only of Peter (since he calls him ''Satan') but also of himself (since only a 'drunk and overcome with wine' could assign the keys of the Kingdom to the same person called 'Satan').
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Re: George Young: Gospel of Mark as Satirical Polemic

Post by Giuseppe »

In this thesis a complete case is made for Mark as satire:

The Gospel of Mark as 'Satire'
In the light of the Bakhtinian concept of satire as a particular attitude of a literary creator towards the actuality he depicts, 51 the Gospel of Mark as a whole belongs to the speech genre of Roman 'satire'. According to Bakhtin, such a genre belongs to the tradition of Mennipean satire. 52 The tradition of Mennipean satire is characterized by its popular subversive laughter 53 Within the orbit of Mennipean satire, the clearest literary alliance for the gospel of Mark is Satyrica by Petronius which came into being about the same time as the gospel of Mark. The Gospel of Mark and Satyrica of Petronius share similarities, because as a whole narrative they are 'Mennipean satire extended to the limits of novel' 54 Strong influence of Latinism in Mark is an obvious evidence of the Latin speaking milieu of Roman readership. Bas M. G. van Iersel points out some evidence of Latinism in Mark which exceeds other gospels:

...

The finding that the book of Mark belongs to 'satire' is assisted by the Bakhtinian dialogic analysis of the volitional relationship between the author-artist and the disciples as heroes. Bakhtinian literary approach of finding the literary work as a holistic narrative helps to set us free from the more traditional approach of genre studies which are confined to identifying formalistic linguistic features. Using Bakhtin's notion of emotional tone of the author towards the hero (character), we could clearly notify that the general tone of the authorial attitude toward the religious opponents is very negative. Also the uniqueness of the gospel of Mark is its negative tone towards the disciples as characters (heroes). Such holistic negative relationship of author and heroes belongs to 'satire'. Satire as speech genre is 'a definite (fundamentally negative) attitude of the creator towards the object of representation (i. e. represented actuality), defining his choice of means of artistic representation and the general character of his images'.


....


Last but not least, the closer literary link we have found between Satyrica and the Gospel of Mark might be useful to open further research on the historical aspect of Mark. First, the fact that Satyrica is likely to be written at the time of Nero provides stronger support for their socio-historical affinities. Secondly, the surprising fact that satire became the favourite literature in the early Christian circles for quite some time might open the way for further historical and literary investigations. Some literary evidence of satirical works alludes to the satirical attitude of Roman writers against the Jews in Rome. For example Juvenal's negative attitude towards the Jews is clearly in line with the satirical attitude of the author-artist of Mark.


The work reflects the intention of the author-artist to present the 'origin' of the gospel as preached by Jesus. The beginning of the book of Mark states the explicit intention of the author-artist. This sense of the beginning of the gospel is demonstrated 'satirically' at the end of the book by stating 'they do not say to anybody, because they are afraid'. Thus the sense of the work as a whole is satirical towards the disciples.
...


The finding of speech genre 'satire' is not only useful for the academic pursuit of theory, but also for the practice of interpreting the Gospel of Mark. Therefore it is worth making an attempt to observe not only some similar features in both, but to explore the gestures of such literary features for a fresh reading of Mark.
As far as 'expression and composition' are concerned, there is a striking relationship between Scatyricü and the Gospel of Mark. Some of the characteristics are: 1) the pungent and coarsely realistic way of expression; 2) the use of miracle story for satirical purposes; 3)the tendency of mime mixed with pungent elements of other popular literary forms. 73 These elements of 'satire' are present in Mark. Particularly the 'polychromatic'74 function of satire matches exactly with the prominent characteristic of polyphonic voices of speaking subject in the text of Mark. As 'natura' is prominently 'variety' the closest generic family relation of the polyphonic text of Mark is 'satire'.

Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Re: George Young: Gospel of Mark as Satirical Polemic

Post by Giuseppe »

And still, this is interesting:

Similar mode of representation is found in Mark 15: 26 where it is reported that '... the inscription giving the charge against him read, 'THE KING OF THE JEWS"... ' It is interesting to note in Nl\ version it has been printed in BLOCK CAPITALS. The ironic function of the written notice unwittingly serves as a means of the genre of satire. It portrays the truth of the ironic reality of a particular meaningful event. If we confine ourselves only on its historical function, we will miss the generic interplay of satire, which functions beyond the boundary of historicism. It is interesting to note how Jesus' kingship has been played in satirical tone; in Mark 14: 61 the title Messiah is competing with its affirmation by Jesus, 'I am.. ', but he continues to call himself as 'the Son of Man... at the right hand of the Power'-NRSV; and in Mark 15: 2- Pilate's question, 'Are you the King of the Jews? ' is replied by Jesus 'You say so'. All these need to be seen as a 'satiric power interplay' of competing utterance between Jesus and his opponents.

Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Re: George Young: Gospel of Mark as Satirical Polemic

Post by Giuseppe »

And it surprises me again to see the same point made by me in another thread:

On the level of narrated world, it [the TITULUM CRUCIS] may be read as a mockery from Pilate to the Jews, using their own words. On the level of narrating world, it may be read as a claim that Jesus is truly unrecognised king for the Jews. However, still in the same level of narrating discourse, it may be read as a parody of the very idea of earthly political kingship, since Jesus is more than that.

(my bold)

So even the irony of the titulum crucis is no sure evidence of the real messianic identity of Jesus: to call Jesus as (Jewish) ''Messiah'' (or ''King of Jews'') may be really an offence against the TRUE Jesus, since ''Jesus is more than that''. He may be the Messiah of an Alien God and not of the Demiurge.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Re: George Young: Gospel of Mark as Satirical Polemic

Post by Giuseppe »


The narrator's comment who says that he was crying, 'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? ', (Mark 15: 34) sounds in paradox with the narrator's comment and the centurion's confession as he said, 'Truly, this man was Son of God' (Mark 15: 39b).

This may be another case of a Jesus who does satire against himself (as per Martin's view).
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Re: George Young: Gospel of Mark as Satirical Polemic

Post by Peter Kirby »

Martin Klatt wrote: Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:41 am
Peter Kirby wrote: Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:05 pm
Martin Klatt wrote: Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:48 pm
Peter Kirby wrote: Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:41 pm Cool, but that’s not what I meant by “find a parallel.”

A different text entirely, from the time period, known to be satire.
Isn't that the point that makes it difficult to identify texts from a distant period as being subtle satire? The past is like a different universe, translations become more inaccurate because of the time barrier. You try recognizing a text in a foreign language as being satire if you're only armed with very basic language skills. You will only succeed if it is in your face, if more subtle you will most likely miss the point completely.
I guess we could start with the "a different text entirely, from the time period," believed to be satire. ;)
Yeah, there is some reason to believe "the purpose of Mark may not have been to promote Christianity, but rather to sabotage it through subtle satire and, in some instances, outright mockery"
On the other hand I am even contemplating the possibility the whole satire of Mark is more generic and aimed at all the credulous folk who fall for confidence tricksters like Yeshua the Nazarene who for all I care could be Mark's literary creation all together. Since I became a believer in the Mark as satire hypothesis, unsurprisingly I just keep spotting alternative meanings all over the story. As long as my "translations" fit both the hypothesis and are still linguistically possible, my faith in it strengthens. Point is when you apply it consistently the more puzzling episodes gain acceptable meaning too. Still a lot of it beyond my reach of understanding, my language skills being only basic. ;)
Is there a non-Christian text example of the era for what you believe about Mark?

So far you’ve only resurrected an old thread in order to express your faith.
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
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Re: George Young: Gospel of Mark as Satirical Polemic

Post by Giuseppe »

Peter Kirby wrote: Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:48 am Is there a non-Christian text example of the era for what you believe about Mark?
A possible answer:
the clearest literary alliance for the gospel of Mark is Satyrica by Petronius which came into being about the same time as the gospel of Mark.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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