Proofs That Jesus Existed
- Peter Kirby
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Re: Proofs That Jesus Existed
ARGUMENT FROM "IF IT AIN'T BAROQUE, DON'T FIX IT"
(1) The following facts are trivial to explain by a mere mortal Jesus of Nazareth:
(1) (A) Various references in Paul, the Gospels, and Josephus that are most simply explained as references to a flesh and blood brother of Jesus.
(1) (B) The forced attempt to assert that Jesus was born in the "biblically correct" village of Bethlehem instead of the no-account village of Nazareth.
(1) (C) The forced attempt to say that Jesus being a Nazarene was prophesied by the Old Testament.
(1) (D) The claim that Jesus was crucified, in spite of the cultural disincentives to make up such an ignominious death.
(2) Attempts to fit the above facts into a mythicist framework have relied on baroque speculations, strained interpretations of the texts, and sometimes pseudo-history.
(3) Therefore, Jesus existed.
(1) The following facts are trivial to explain by a mere mortal Jesus of Nazareth:
(1) (A) Various references in Paul, the Gospels, and Josephus that are most simply explained as references to a flesh and blood brother of Jesus.
(1) (B) The forced attempt to assert that Jesus was born in the "biblically correct" village of Bethlehem instead of the no-account village of Nazareth.
(1) (C) The forced attempt to say that Jesus being a Nazarene was prophesied by the Old Testament.
(1) (D) The claim that Jesus was crucified, in spite of the cultural disincentives to make up such an ignominious death.
(2) Attempts to fit the above facts into a mythicist framework have relied on baroque speculations, strained interpretations of the texts, and sometimes pseudo-history.
(3) Therefore, Jesus existed.
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
- Peter Kirby
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Re: Proofs That Jesus Existed
ARGUMENT FROM JESUS BEING A COMMON NAME AT THE TIME
(1) Jesus was a common name at the time.
(2) Therefore, Jesus existed.
(1) Jesus was a common name at the time.
(2) Therefore, Jesus existed.
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
- Peter Kirby
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Re: Proofs That Jesus Existed
PRIME MOVER ARGUMENT
(1) There was a first group of Christians.
(2) If there was a first group of Christians, it must have had a historical origin.
(3) Being the followers of a religious leader is a possible historical origin for any first group of Christians.
(4) No other possible historical origin is known for any first group of Christians.
(5) The name 'Jesus' is conventionally accepted as referring to a religious leader whose followers were the first group of Christians.
(6) Therefore, Jesus existed.
(1) There was a first group of Christians.
(2) If there was a first group of Christians, it must have had a historical origin.
(3) Being the followers of a religious leader is a possible historical origin for any first group of Christians.
(4) No other possible historical origin is known for any first group of Christians.
(5) The name 'Jesus' is conventionally accepted as referring to a religious leader whose followers were the first group of Christians.
(6) Therefore, Jesus existed.
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
- Peter Kirby
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Re: Proofs That Jesus Existed
ARGUMENT FROM THREE INDEPENDENT SOURCES
(1) Given the limitations of historical personages who were not emperors or kings in antiquity, three independent sources confirming the existence of an individual should be sufficient evidence to establish that it is more probable than not that that person existed.
(2) If it can be established that it is more probable than not that a certain personage existed then for the sake of this historical argument we should be able to say that that person existed.
(3) If Jesus had a brother named James who existed it is unlikely that Jesus was entirely mythical.
(4) If it is unlikely that Jesus was entirely mythical then it is more probable than not that he existed.
(5) If it is more probable than not that Jesus existed, then Jesus existed (P2).
(6) Three independent sources from antiquity stated that James the brother of Jesus existed. (Galatians 1:19, Mark 6:3, Antiquities 20.9.1)
(7) James the brother of Jesus existed. (P1, P2, P6)
(8) Therefore, Jesus existed. (P3, P4, P5 & P7)
(1) Given the limitations of historical personages who were not emperors or kings in antiquity, three independent sources confirming the existence of an individual should be sufficient evidence to establish that it is more probable than not that that person existed.
(2) If it can be established that it is more probable than not that a certain personage existed then for the sake of this historical argument we should be able to say that that person existed.
(3) If Jesus had a brother named James who existed it is unlikely that Jesus was entirely mythical.
(4) If it is unlikely that Jesus was entirely mythical then it is more probable than not that he existed.
(5) If it is more probable than not that Jesus existed, then Jesus existed (P2).
(6) Three independent sources from antiquity stated that James the brother of Jesus existed. (Galatians 1:19, Mark 6:3, Antiquities 20.9.1)
(7) James the brother of Jesus existed. (P1, P2, P6)
(8) Therefore, Jesus existed. (P3, P4, P5 & P7)
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
- JoeWallack
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Re: Proofs That Jesus Existed
ARGUMENT FROM LAS VEGAS
(1) Caesar's says the odds that Jesus existed are 1 to 3 (get it, "1 to 3").
(2) Therefore, Jesus existed.
(1) Caesar's says the odds that Jesus existed are 1 to 3 (get it, "1 to 3").
(2) Therefore, Jesus existed.
- Peter Kirby
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Re: Proofs That Jesus Existed
ARGUMENT FROM CRITERIA
(1) On the assumption that the sayings of Jesus were repeated and interpreted time after time, thus forming layers of tradition, Norman Perrin argued in Rediscovering the Teachings of Jesus that the tradition-history of each saying must be written in order to discover its "most primitive form." He used three main criteria in his study to determine the tradition-history of Jesus' sayings:
(1) (A) the criterion of dissimilarity, on the grounds that a saying which differs in its emphasis both from Jesus' background and from the foreground of the church was preserved because it was authentic,
(1) (B) the criterion of coherence which judges materials to be authentic if they are consistent with those judged authentic in terms of the first criterion,
(1) (C) the criterion of multiple attestation which takes materials to be authentic if they stem from most or all the pre-Synoptic sources.
(2) Some material is authenticated by these criteria.
(3) Therefore, Jesus existed.
(1) On the assumption that the sayings of Jesus were repeated and interpreted time after time, thus forming layers of tradition, Norman Perrin argued in Rediscovering the Teachings of Jesus that the tradition-history of each saying must be written in order to discover its "most primitive form." He used three main criteria in his study to determine the tradition-history of Jesus' sayings:
(1) (A) the criterion of dissimilarity, on the grounds that a saying which differs in its emphasis both from Jesus' background and from the foreground of the church was preserved because it was authentic,
(1) (B) the criterion of coherence which judges materials to be authentic if they are consistent with those judged authentic in terms of the first criterion,
(1) (C) the criterion of multiple attestation which takes materials to be authentic if they stem from most or all the pre-Synoptic sources.
(2) Some material is authenticated by these criteria.
(3) Therefore, Jesus existed.
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
- JoeWallack
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Re: Proofs That Jesus Existed
ARGUMENT FROM SIMON SAID
(1) Simon said: "You are the Christ".
(2) Jesus did not exist.
(3) Simon diidn't saay.
(4) Therefore, Jesus existed.
(1) Simon said: "You are the Christ".
(2) Jesus did not exist.
(3) Simon diidn't saay.
(4) Therefore, Jesus existed.
- JoeWallack
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Re: Proofs That Jesus Existed
ARGUMENT FROM OH SNAP
(1) Oh no he di-int.
(2) Oh yes he di-id.
(3) Oh snap! (accompanied by snapping motion)
(4) Therefore, Jesus existed.
(1) Oh no he di-int.
(2) Oh yes he di-id.
(3) Oh snap! (accompanied by snapping motion)
(4) Therefore, Jesus existed.
Argument from inconceivability
- It is inconceivable that Jesus didn't exist.
- Therefore, Jesus existed.
Dysexlia lures • ⅔ of what we see is behind our eyes
Argument from history... umm, and books
- History teaches us that there was a vagrant Galilean called Jesus, who started a new religion.
- It's in a book.
- History doesn't lie.
- Neither do books (or Wikipedia).
- So I trust it.
- Therefore, Jesus existed.
Dysexlia lures • ⅔ of what we see is behind our eyes