Recent proposals about Q

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 8798
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Recent proposals about Q

Post by MrMacSon »

.
Dennis MacDonald thinks Q is tied to Papias - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q%2B/Papias_Hypothesis


Allan Garrow thinks Q is tied to the Didache -
  • http://www.alangarrow.com/extantq.html

    http://www.alangarrow.com/didache.html

    Garrow wrote in a comment on someone else's blog a couple of years ago -
    • "the Didache contains some Jesus sayings that were used by Luke - and that Matthew then conflated Luke's version with the Didache's original. These Didache sayings qualify as an 'extant instance of 'Q' ' in the sense that they were used by both Luke and Matthew." http://disq.us/p/ykc6bq
    Garrow uses 'Q' (in quotation marks) to denote sayings of Jesus used by Luke and Matthew - but which don't appear in Mark.
User avatar
DCHindley
Posts: 3412
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:53 am
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: Recent proposals about Q

Post by DCHindley »

MrMacSon wrote:Allan Garrow ... uses 'Q' (in quotation marks) to denote sayings of Jesus used by Luke and Matthew - but which don't appear in Mark.
That is how I deal with 'Q' as well. Basically, Q was "reconstructed" from the material common to Matthew & Luke but not found in Mark. However, those reconstructions were in many ways speculative and based on what individual scholars thought should have been in it. These had then extended their reconstructions of Q to include stray passages in Mark and the Didache.

The scholar who has exerted the greatest influence on me was John Kloppenborg [Verbin], particularly The Formation of Q: Trajectories in ancient wisdom collections (1987), but I also have several of his later books on this topic, and have compared his approach to that of Burton Mack (The Lost Gospel: the book of Q & Christian origins, 1993). I found his discussion of sapiental literature in the ANE very enlightening.

I was a bit sad when, after long attempting to remain neutral on the subject, he wrote Excavating Q: The History and Setting of the Sayings Gospel (2000), in which he joined the bandwagon to show how Q was adapted over time as Christian development progressed, using a model where Jesus is a wandering itinerant sophist whose sayings were collected and adapted into a Judean framework. And all without Marcion!

My POV is a bit different: Early Christians, whose concept of Jesus had changed into something akin to a mystery cult figure, felt the need put some distance between him and the Judaism from which he sprang, which was at that time looked upon askance due to the factionalism caused by the war of 66-74 CE. So, a collection of (probably pagan) wisdom sayings was adopted and adapted to "show" how Jesus was "misunderstood" by the Judeans, and cast as a bad man (rebel) when he was "really" a harmless wisdom teacher.

This kind of interpretation, of course, presses the hot buttons of many. "Early Christians would never have made things up about Jesus!" "What do you mean Jesus was not a libertine teacher of wisdom that was ethically superior to everything in the universe up to that point, especially Judaism? Why would Jews and Gentiles follow him?" What what what ... In my way of thinking, the Didache is a romantic attempt to reconstruct early Christian thinking to fit this model. It is not evidence for itineracy, and is likely derivative from the synoptic gospels. To be honest, I seriously doubt that at the point the NT was written, Christians (practicing the mystery savior cult) had much certain knowledge of their actual origins, or were ashamed of it. The form they had developed it to was better, much better, than anything bad one could say about their founder. "This isn't your grandfather's Buick!"

DCH
User avatar
DCHindley
Posts: 3412
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:53 am
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: Recent proposals about Q

Post by DCHindley »

Just for the sake of discussion, here is a scaled down comparison of the double tradition (Matthew & Luke), removing any that have a parallel in Mark, derived from Ben Smith's Text Excavation website:

Matthew.
Luke.
5.1. The sermon on the mount. 6.17ab. The sermon on the plain.
5.2-12. The beatitudes. 6.20-23. The beatitudes.
5.18. Not one jot, not one tittle. 16.17. Not one tittle.
5.25-26. Settle on the way. 12.57-59. Settle on the way.
5.31-32. Against divorce. 16.18. Against divorce.
5.38-48. On revenge and enemies. 6.27-36. On revenge and enemies.
6.9-13. The paternoster. 11.1-4. The paternoster.
6.19-21. Treasure in heaven. 12.33-34. Treasure in heaven.
6.22-23. The lamp of the body. 11.33-36. The lamp of the body.
6.24-34. Seek first the kingdom. 12.22-32. Seek first the kingdom.
6.24. God and mammon. 16.13. God and mammon.
7.1-6. On judgment. 6.37-42. On judgment.
7.7-12. Ask, seek, knock. 11.9-13. Ask, seek, knock.
7.12a. So also do. 6.31. Do likewise.
7.13-14. Broad and narrow. 13.22-30. Broad and narrow.
7.15-20. By their fruits. 6.43-45. By their fruits.
7.21-23. Do as I say. 6.46. Do as I say.
7.24-27. The parable of the wise and foolish builders. 6.47-49. The parable of the wise and foolish builders.
8.5-13. The healing at the request of a centurion. 7.1-10. The healing at the request of a centurion.
8.11. From east and west. 13.28. From east and west.
8.12. Weeping and gnashing 13.29. Weeping and gnashing
of teeth. of teeth.
8.18-22. Following Jesus. 9.57-62. Following Jesus.
9.37. The laborers are few. 10.2a. The laborers are few.
9.38. Lord of the harvest. 10.2b. Lord of the harvest.
10.17-25. Delivered up. 12.11-12. Delivered up.
10.24-25a. Disciple and master. 6.40. Disciple and master.
10.26-31. Fear not. 12.2-7. Fear not.
10.32-33. Before my father. 12.8-10. Before the angels.
10.34-36. Not peace, but a sword. 12.51-53. Not peace, but a sword.
10.37-38. Take up your cross. 14.25-27. Take up your cross.
10.39. Finding and losing. 17.33. Finding and losing.
10.40-42. Receiving the sender. 10.16. Receiving the sender.
11.1-19. The inquiry of John the baptist. 7.18-35. The inquiry of John the baptist.
11.12. The violent bear it away. 16.16c. The violent bear it away.
11.13a. Prophets and law. 16.16a. Prophets and law.
11.13b. Until John. 16.16b. Until John.
11.20-24. Woe to the cities. 10.13-15. Woe to the cities.
11.25-27. Revealed to babes. 10.21-22. Revealed to babes.
12.33-35. By their fruits. 6.43-45. By their fruits.
12.38-42. The sign of Jonah. 11.29-32. The sign of Jonah.
12.43-45. The seven spirits. 11.24-26. The seven spirits.
13.16-17. Blessed are your eyes and ears. 10.23-24. Blessed are your eyes.
13.33. The parable of the 13.20-21. The parable of the
leaven. leaven.
15.14. The blind leading the blind. 6.39. The blind leading the blind.
16.1-3. Discerning the times. 12.54-56. Discerning the times.
17.20b. The faith of a mustard seed. 17.6. The faith of a mustard seed.
18.11-14. The parable of the 15.1-7. The parable of the
lost sheep. lost sheep.
18.15-20. Where two or three are gathered. 17.3. Rebuking and forgiving.
18.21-22. Forgiving seven times. 17.4. Forgiving seven times.
19.28. On twelve thrones. 22.28-30. On twelve thrones.
22.1-13. The parable of the 14.15-24. The parable of the
wedding feast. great supper.
23.4. Heavy loads. 11.46b. Heavy burdens.
23.12. Exalted and humbled. 14.11. Exalted and humbled.
23.13-36. Woe to the 11.37-54. Woe to the
Pharisees and scribes. Pharisees and lawyers.
23.13a. Woe to you, scribes 11.43a, 46a. Woe to you, Pharisees
and Pharisees. and lawyers.
23.13b. Not entering. 11.52b. Not entering.
23.23b. Mint, dill, and cummin. 11.42bb. Mint and dill.
23.25b-26. Inside and outside. 11.39-41. Inside and outside.
23.27b-28. Whitewashed tombs. 11.44b. Unseen tombs.
23.29b-30. Tombs of the prophets. 11.47b. Tombs of the prophets.
23.31. Sons of murderers. 11.48. Approving the deeds.
23.34. I shall send you prophets. 11.49. I shall send you prophets.
23.35. From Abel to Zechariah. 11.51. From Abel to Zechariah.
23.36. Upon this generation. 11.50. Against this generation.
23.37-39. Lament over Jerusalem. 13.34-35. Lament over Jerusalem.
24.26-28. Like lightning. 17.22-25. Like lightning.
24.28. The corpse and the eagles. 17.37. The corpse and the eagles.
24.37-39. As in the days of Noah. 17.26-30. As in the days of Noah and Lot.
24.40-42. One taken, another left. 17.34-37. One taken, another left.
24.43-44. A thief in the night. 12.39-40. A thief.
24.45-51. The parable of the 12.41-48. The parable of the
faithful servant. faithful steward.
25.14-30. The parable of the talents. 19.11-27. The parable of the pounds.

Please excuse the extra rows which are due to the way Ben formatted his web page.

Some of these things are common to all societies of that time, and do not require a Judaic environment. Others are clearly meant to explain (away) Jesus' apocalyptic sayings as critiques of Judaism. I've never made an in-depth analysis of the double tradition, though. During an online seminar with Kloppenborg (I think it was at Synoptic-l) I suggested that Q was based on a generic wisdom collection, of which there were many in this period, and refashioned to serve as an apology for Christian beginnings that filed off Jesus' rough edges. K politely said he had not considered this before, but just as politely sort of moved it aside. It was not long after this that Excavating Q came out, so he may already have thrown his hat in with the "itinerant preacher" crowd. Several folks were critical of this suggestion, pointing out allusions to Judaic practices that "proved" that Q was Judaic in origin. In my humble opinion these allusions were present to explain away charges that outsiders may have made against Christians (now largely a gentile mystery religion, who did not want to be associated with rebellious Judeans and their internal factions).

DCH
Michael BG
Posts: 665
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 8:02 am

Re: Recent proposals about Q

Post by Michael BG »

MrMacSon wrote:.
Dennis MacDonald thinks Q is tied to Papias - …

Allan Garrow thinks Q is tied to the Didache -


Garrow wrote in a comment on someone else's blog a couple of years ago -
  • "the Didache contains some Jesus sayings that were used by Luke - and that Matthew then conflated Luke's version with the Didache's original. These Didache sayings qualify as an 'extant instance of 'Q' ' in the sense that they were used by both Luke and Matthew." …
Garrow uses 'Q' (in quotation marks) to denote sayings of Jesus used by Luke and Matthew - but which don't appear in Mark.
I have read some of the MacDonald book but I disagree with some of his cases for lateness.

A few years ago I looked at the Didache sayings and I couldn’t see them as earlier than what can be reconstructed as Q from Matthew and Luke. I will have to watch the videos to look at Garrow’s presentation (I would have preferred to read the argument but it does not seem possible).
DCHindley wrote:
MrMacSon wrote:Allan Garrow ... uses 'Q' (in quotation marks) to denote sayings of Jesus used by Luke and Matthew - but which don't appear in Mark.
That is how I deal with 'Q' as well. Basically, Q was "reconstructed" from the material common to Matthew & Luke but not found in Mark. However, those reconstructions were in many ways speculative and based on what individual scholars thought should have been in it. These had then extended their reconstructions of Q to include stray passages in Mark and the Didache.
I don’t think we should include anything just in Mark or the Didache. It is possible that if one Q document existed in contained more than in both of Matthew and Luke and likely that some M or L passages are from Q. Q could be more than one document, but it should be defined as passages in the “double tradition”.
DCHindley wrote:The scholar who has exerted the greatest influence on me was John Kloppenborg [Verbin], particularly The Formation of Q: Trajectories in ancient wisdom collections (1987), but I also have several of his later books on this topic, and have compared his approach to that of Burton Mack (The Lost Gospel: the book of Q & Christian origins, 1993). I found his discussion of sapiental literature in the ANE very enlightening.
What is the ANE?

What is often forgotten is that Kloppenborg does not discuss the historicity of the sayings and just because he assigns a saying to Q2 it does not mean it was a creation of the Q community. I think Mack does reject Q2 material as not being historical, and this leaves him with his Greek type Cynic philosopher Jesus.
DCHindley wrote:My POV is a bit different: ... So, a collection of (probably pagan) wisdom sayings was adopted and adapted to "show" how Jesus was "misunderstood" by the Judeans, and cast as a bad man (rebel) when he was "really" a harmless wisdom teacher.
The Wisdom tradition for me is a Jewish idea linked to the Greek Sophia e.g. Lk 7:25 “Yet wisdom is justified by all her children” (Q = Mt 21:18f).
Isn’t your position close to Mack’s?
DCHindley wrote:In my way of thinking, the Didache is a romantic attempt to reconstruct early Christian thinking to fit this model. It is not evidence for itineracy, and is likely derivative from the synoptic gospels.
Can you present a case that the Didache does not contain any traditions earlier than the ones we find in the synoptic gospels?
User avatar
DCHindley
Posts: 3412
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:53 am
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: Recent proposals about Q

Post by DCHindley »

What is the ANE?
Ancient Near East (basically Asia Minor and Syria).

As for how close my POV is to those of Mack and Kloppenborg, I don't know. Mack's analysis was much more streamlined than Kloppenborg's, and I was looking at Mack's stratification at the time I made my suggestion to Kloppenborg.

For those who are lurking, here is a comparison of Q stratification theories of Kloppenborg & Mack:

Luke
Gospel of Thomas
Mack's Saying #
Mack's Level #
Kloppen-borg's Saying #
Kloppen-borg's Level #
Lost Gospel 1993 Lost Gospel 1993 Q Para-llels,1988 Semeia, 1991
Lost QS01 ? S01 -
Lost QS02 ? - -
3:01-06 QS03 2a S02 -
3:07-09 QS04 2a S03 Q2a
3:16-17 QS05 2a S04 Q2a
3:22b - - S05? -
4:01-13 QS06 3 S06 Q3
6:20a QS07 ? S07 -
6:20b-23 54; 69b; 68 QS08 ? S08 Q1a
6:23c QS08 ? S08 Q2+
6:27-35 6:2; 95 QS09 1 S09 Q1a
6:36-38 QS10 1 S10 Q1a
6:39-40 34 QS11 1 S11 Q1a
6:41-42 26 QS12 1 S12 Q1a
6:43-45 45 QS13 1 S13 Q1a
6:46-49 QS14 1 S14 Q1a
7:01-10 QS15 2a S15 Q2b
7:18-23 QS16 2a S16 Q2b
7:24-25 78 QS17 2a S17? Q2b
7:26-27 QS17 2a S18? Q2b
7:28 46 QS17 2a S19? Q2b
7:31-35 QS18 2a S20 Q2b
9:57-62 86 QS19 1 S21 Q1b
10:01-11 73; 14:2 QS20 1 S22 Q1b
10:12 QS21 2a - Q2+
10:13-15 QS22 2a S23 Q2+
10:16 QS23 2b S24 Q1b
10:21-22 61? QS24 3 S25 -
10:23-24 QS25 2b S26 -
11:01-04 QS26 1 S27 Q1c
11:09-13 2; 92; 94 QS27 1 S28 Q1c
11:14-23a 35 QS28 2a S29 Q2c
11:23b QS29 2b N/A Q2c
11:24-26 QS30 2b S30 Q2c
11:27-28 QS31 3 S31 Q2c(?)
11:16 QS32 2a S32? -
11:29-32 QS32 2a S32 Q2c
11:33-35 33:2 QS33 2b S33 Q2c
11:36 - - S33? Q2c
11:39-52 89; 102?; 39:1 QS34 2a S34 Q2c
11:42c QS34 2a S34 Q3
11:39b, 42a, 43a Pharisees QS34 3 S34 Q2c
12:02-03 5:2; 6:3; 33:1 QS35 1 S35 Q1d
12:04-07 QS36 1 S36 Q1d
12:05 Hell Fire QS36 3 S36 Q1d
12:08-09 QS37 2b S37? Q2+
12:10 44 QS37 2b S38? Q2+
12:11-12 QS37 2b S39? Q1d
12:13-21 QS38 1 S40 -
12:22-31 36 QS39 1 S41 Q1e
12:33-34 76:2 QS40 1 S42 Q1e
12:36-38? - - S43 -
12:39-40 21:3; 103 QS41 2a S44 Q2d
12:42-46 QS42 2a S45 Q2d
12:49-53 16 QS43 2a S46 Q2d
12:54-56 91 QS44 2a S47 Q2d
12:57-59 QS45 2a S48 Q2d
13:18-21 20; 96 QS46 1 S49 -
13:24-27 QS47 2a S50 -
13:24 QS47 2a S50 Q1f
13:25-27 - - - Q2+
13:28-30 QS48 2a S51 Q2+
13:34-35 QS49 3 S52 Q2+
14:11 = 18:14b QS50 1 S53 -
14:12-14? - - S54 -
14:16-24 64 QS51 1 S55 Q2+
14:26-27 = 17:33 55; 101 QS52 1 S56 Q1f
14:34-35 QS53 1 S57 Q1f
15:04-07 107 QS54 2b S58? Q1g
15:08-10 QS54 2b S59? Q1g(?)
16:13 47:2 QS55 2b S60 Q1g
16:16 QS56 3 S61 -
16:17 QS56 3 S61 Q3
16:18 QS56 3 S61 Q1g
17:01-02 QS57 2b S62 Q1g
17:03-04 QS58 2b S63 Q1g
17:06 QS59 2b S64 Q1g
17:20-21? 3c; 51; 113a - - S65 -
17:23-37 61; 113b QS60 2a S66 Q2e
19:11-27 41 QS61 2a S67 Q2e
22:28-30 QS62 3 S68 Q2e

Have fun!

DCH :whistling:
User avatar
DCHindley
Posts: 3412
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:53 am
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: Recent proposals about Q

Post by DCHindley »

Since we are dealing with recent proposals, here is a more comprehensive analysis:

[td]12:39-40[/td][td]12:40[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]H[/td] [td]Qi?[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]Qr[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]SpE[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]Q2a[/td] [td][/td][td]12:42b-46[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]H[/td] [td]Qi?[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]Q*[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]SpE[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]Q2a[/td] [td]12:42-46[/td][td][12:47-48][/td] [td]--[/td] [td]SpR[/td] [td][/td] [td]--[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]QLk[/td] [td]--[/td] [td][/td] [td][/td][td](12:49)[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]SpR[/td] [td]Qc[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]SpE[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]Q2a[/td] [td]12:49-53[/td][td][12:50][/td] [td]--[/td] [td]SpR[/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td]--[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]SpE[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]Q2a[/td] [td][/td][td]12:51-53[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]SpR[/td] [td]Qc[/td] [td]Q?[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]SpE[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q2a[/td] [td][/td][td]12:54-56[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]H[/td] [td]Qc[/td] [td]Q?[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]QLk[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q2a[/td] [td]12:54-56[/td][td]12:57-59[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]H[/td] [td][/td] [td]Q?[/td] [td]Q*[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]SpE[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q2a[/td] [td]12:57-59[/td][td]13:18-19[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]H[/td] [td]Qc[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]Qr[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]SpE[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]13:18-21[/td][td]13:20-21[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]H[/td] [td]Qc[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]Qr[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]SpE[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td][/td][td]13:23[/td] [td]--[/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]C[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td][/td] [td][/td][td]13:24[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]H[/td] [td][/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]C[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q2a[/td] [td]13:24-27[/td][td]13:(25), 26-27[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]H[/td] [td][/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]C[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q2a[/td] [td][/td][td]13:28-29[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]H[/td] [td][/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]C[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q2a[/td] [td]13:28-30[/td][td]13:30[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]H[/td] [td][/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]Q2a[/td] [td][/td][td]13:34-35a[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]H[/td] [td]Qc[/td] [td]Q1?[/td] [td]Qr[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]C[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q3[/td] [td]13:34-35[/td][td]13:35b[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]H[/td] [td]Qc[/td] [td]Q2r[/td] [td]Qr[/td] [td]Q2r[/td] [td]C[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q3[/td] [td][/td][td][14:5][/td] [td]--[/td] [td]H[/td] [td][/td] [td]--[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]?[/td] [td][/td] [td][/td][td]14:11/18:14[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]?[/td] [td][/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]14:11/18:14[/td][td]14:16-24[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]H[/td] [td]Qc[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]Q*[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]14:16-24[/td][td]14:26[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]H[/td] [td]Qc[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]14:26-27;17:33[/td][td]14:27[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]H[/td] [td]Qc[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td][/td][td]17:33[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]H[/td] [td]Qc[/td] [td]Q1?[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td][/td][td]14:34-35[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]H[/td] [td]Qc[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]Q*[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]14:34-35[/td][td]15:4-7[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]H[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q1?[/td] [td]Q*[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q2b[/td] [td]15:04-10[/td][td](15:8-10)[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]H[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]Q2b[/td] [td][/td][td]16:13[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]H[/td] [td]Qa[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q2b[/td] [td]16:13[/td][td]16:16[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]H[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]Qr[/td] [td]Q2?[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q3[/td] [td]16:16-18[/td][td]16:17[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]H[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q3[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q3[/td] [td][/td][td]16:18[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]H[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q3[/td] [td][/td][td]17:1b[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]H[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q2b[/td] [td]17:01-02[/td][td]17:02[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]H[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]Q2b[/td] [td][/td][td]17:3b-4[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]H[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q2b[/td] [td]17:03-04[/td][td]17:6b[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]H[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q2b[/td] [td]17:06[/td][td]17:23-24[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]H[/td] [td][/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]C[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]Q2a[/td] [td]17:23-37[/td][td]17:37b[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]H[/td] [td][/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]Qr[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]C[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]Q2a[/td] [td][/td][td]17:26-27, 30[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]H[/td] [td][/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]C[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]Q2a[/td] [td][/td][td](17:28-29)[/td] [td]--[/td] [td]H[/td] [td][/td] [td]Q1?[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]QLk[/td] [td]Q?[/td] [td]Q2a[/td] [td][/td][td]17:34-35[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]H[/td] [td][/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]C[/td] [td]Q1[/td] [td]Q2a[/td] [td][/td][td]19:12-13,15b-26[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]SpR[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]Q*[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q2a[/td] [td]19:11-27[/td][td]22:28-30[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]H[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q1*[/td] [td]Q*[/td] [td]Q2[/td] [td]?[/td] [td]Q[/td] [td]Q3[/td] [td]22:28-30[/td][td][/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td][/td]
Kloppenborg's Q
Schultz
Polag
Jacobson
Schmithals
Schenk
Kloppenborg
Sato
Zeller
Mack
Mack's Q
1972 1977 1978/1992 1979,80,85 1981 1987/1990 1988 1977,82,84 1994
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 (9)
(3:2-4) -- SpR? Q2 -- Q2 A Q Q2a 03:01-06
3:7-9 Q2 SpR Qcr Q1 Q Q2 A Q Q2a 03:07-09
3:16bd Q2 SpR Qc Q2 Qr Q2 A Q Q2a 03:16-17
3:16c Q2 SpR Qi Q2 Q Q2 A Q Q2a
3:17 Q2 SpR Qc Q1 Q Q2 A Q Q2a
[3:21-32] -- SpR Qc Q2 -- -- A Q?
4:1-13 Q2 SpR Q3 Q2 Qr Q3 SpE Q3 Q3 04:01-13
[4:16] -- ? -- -- -- ? A --
<6:20a> -- H ? ? Q Q1 A Q Q1 06:20a
6:20b-21 Q1 H Qc Q1 Q Q1 A Q1 Q1 06:20-23
6:22-23b Q2 H Qc Q1 Qr Q1 A Q1 Q1
6:23c Q2 H Qcr Q1 Qr Q2r A Q1 Q1
(6:24-26) -- ? -- Q1? -- Q2 QLk QLk
6:27-28,32-33, 35c Q1 Ha Qc Q1 Q Q1 A Q1 Q1 06:27-35
(6:34-35b) -- -- Qc? -- -- Q1 A? -- Q1
6:29-30 Q1 Ha Qc Q1 Q Q1 A Q1 Q1
(Q/Matt 5:41) -- H -- -- -- Q1 A --
6:31 Q1 H Qc Q1 Q Q1 A Q1 Q1
6:36 Q1 Ha Qc Q1 Q Q1 A Q1 Q1 06:36-38
6:37b, 38c Q1 Ha Qc Q1 Q Q1 A Q1 Q1
(6:37c-38b) -- Ha Qc? -- -- Q1 QLk -- Q1
6:39b Q2 H Qcr Q? Q Q1 SpE ? Q1 06:39-40
6:40 Q2 H Qc Q? Q Q1 SpE ? Q1
6:41-42 Q1 H Qc Q? Q Q1 A Q1 Q1 06:41-42
6:43-45 Q2 H Qc Q1 Q Q1 SpE Q1 Q1 06:43-45
6:46 Q2 H Qc Q2? Qr Q1 A Q1 Q1 06:46-49
6:47-49 Q2 H Qc Q1? Q* Q1 A Q1 Q1
7:1a Q2 SpR Qcr Q2 Q Q2 A Q Q2a 07:01-10
7:1b-2, 6-10 Q2 SpR Qcr Q2 Q Q2 A Q Q2a
7:18-19, (20) Q2 Ha Qi Q2 Qr Q2 A Q Q2a 07:18-23
7:22 Q2 Ha Qi Q2 Q Q2 A Q Q2a
7:23 Q2 Ha Qi Q2 Qr Q2 A Q Q2a
7:24-26a Q2 Ha Qc Q2 Q* Q2 A Q Q2a 07:24-28
7:26b Q2 Ha Qc Q2 Qr Q2 A Q Q2a
7:27 Q2 SpR Qc Q2 Qr Q2 SpE Q Q2a
7:28a Q2 SpR Qi Q1 Q Q2 A Q Q2a
7:28b Q2 SpR Qi Q1 Qr Q2 A Q Q2a
[7:29-30] -- -- -- Q2 Qr -- QLk ?
7:31-32 Q2 H Qcr Q1 Q* Q2 C Q Q2a 07:31-35
7:33-35 Q2 H Qcr Q1* Qr Q2 C Q Q2a
9:57-58 Q2 H Qc Q2 Q* Q1 B Q Q1 09:57-62
9:59-60 Q2 H Qc Q2 Q Q1 B Q Q1
(9:61-62) -- H -- -- -- Q1 QLk -- Q1
10:02 Q2 H Qi Q1 Q Q1 B1 Q1 Q1 10:01-11
10:03 Q2 H Qc Q1 Q Q1 B Q1 Q1
[Q/Matt 10:05-06] -- -- -- -- -- -- (B) --
[Q/Matt 10:23] -- H -- Q1 -- -- (B) --
10:4-11 Q2 Ha Qc* Q1 Q Q1 B Q1 Q1
10:12 Q2 H Qcr Q2r Q2r Q2r C Q1 Q2a 10:12
10:13-15 Q2 H Qc* Q2 Q2r Q2 C Q Q2a 10:13-15
10:16 Q2 Ha Qc Q1 Q1 Q1 Br Q1 Q2b 10:16
10:21 Q2 SpR Qi Q1 Q2r Q2 B Q Q3 10:21-22
10:22 Q2 SpR Qi Q2 Q2r Q2 SpE Q3? Q3
10:23b-24 Q2 SpR ? Q2 Q2r Q2 B Q Q2b 10:23-24
[10:25-28] -- -- -- -- -- -- SpE Q?
[11:1b] -- H -- -- -- -- -- Q Q1 11:01-04
11:2-4 Q1 H Qi Q1 Q Q1 SpE Q1 Q1
11:9-10 Q1 H Qi Q? Q Q1 SpE Q1 Q1 11:09-13
11:11-13 Q1 H Qi Q? Q* Q SpE Q1 Q1
11:14-18a Q2 Ha Qc Q1 Q Q2 C Q Q2a 11:14-23
11:19 Q2 Ha Qc Q1 Q* Q2 C Q Q2a
11:20 Q2 Ha Qc Q1 Q Q2 C Q Q2a
(11:21-22) -- Ha -- Q? -- Q2 C Q Q2a
11:23 Q2 Ha Qc Q1 Q Q2 C Q Q2b 11:23
11:24-26 Q2 H Qc Q? Q Q2 C QS Q2b 11:24-26
(11:27-28) -- -- Qc -- -- Q2 -- -- Q3 11:27-28
11:16, 29 Q2 H Qc Q1 Q* Q2 C Q Q2a 11:16,29-32
11:30 Q2 H Qc Q1 Qr Q2 C Q Q2a
11:31-32 Q2 H Qc Q1 Q* Q2 C Q Q2a
11:33 Q2 H Qc Q1 Q Q2 SpE Q Q2b 11:33-35
11:34-35 (36) Q2 H Qc Q? Q1 Q2 SpE Q Q2b
11:39b-44, 46-48 Q1 H Qc Q1 Q Q2 C Q Q2a 11:39-52
11:42d Q1 H Qc Q1 Qr Q3 C Q Q2a
11:49-51a Q2 Hr Qc Q1 Q* Q2 C* Q Q2a
11:51b Q2 Hr Qcr? Q1 Qr Q2r C Q Q2a
11:52 Q1 H Qc Q1 Q Q2 C Q Q2a
12:2-3 Q2 H Qi? Q1 Q Q1 SpE Q1 Q1 12:02-03
12:4-7 Q1 H Qi? Q1 Qr Q1 SpE Q1 Q1 12:04-07
12:8-9 Q1 H Qi? Q1 Qr Q2 SpE Q1 Q2b 12:08-12
12:10 Q2 SpR Qi? Q1 Qr Q2 SpE Q1 Q2b
12:11-12 Q2 H Qi? Q1 Qr Q1 SpE Q Q2b
(12:13-14) -- -- -- -- -- Q1 -- -- Q1 12:13-21
(12:16-21) -- -- -- -- -- Q1 QLk -- Q1
12:22b-24, 26-28 Q1 H Qi? Q1 Q* Q1 SpE? Q1 Q1 12:22-31
12:25 Q1 H Qi? Q1 Qr Q1 SpE? Q1 Q1
12:29-31 Q1 H Qi? Q1 Qr Q1 SpE Q1 Q1
12:33-34 Q1 H Qc Q1 Q Q1 SpE Q1 Q1 12:33-34
[12:35-38] -- H Qc Q1 -- -- QLk Q1?
12:39 Q2 H Qc Q1 Q* Q2 SpE Q1 Q2a

Sigla.
-- not in Q
? in Q but attribution uncertain
sub collections

1. Schulz (1972)
Q1 The kerygma of the oldest Palestinian-Syrian Q community
Q2 The kerygma of the younger Syrian Q- community

2. 'Polag (1977)
H Main Collection (Hauptsammlung)
Ha Older clusters (Die älteren Spruchgruppen) predating the Main Collection
Hr Redactional insertions into the Hauptsammlung
SpR Late editing (Spätredaktion)

3. Jacobson (1978, 1992)
Qc compositional stage
Qc* saying with redactional touches
Qcr redaction at the compositional stage
Qi intermediate redaction
Q3 final redaction

4. Schmithals (1979, 1980, 1985)
Q1 nonkerygmatic, pre-Christian stratum
Q1* pre-Christian stratum with slight Q2 influence
Q2 Christological (post-Markan) redaction of Q.
Q2r creation of the redactor of Q.

5. Schenk (1981)
Q included in Q
Qr from the final redactional stratum
Q* traditional but with slight redactional touches

6. Kloppenborg (1987, 1990)
Q1 formative (instructional) stratum
Q2 secondary, polemical stratum
Q2r creation of the secondary redaction
Q3 tertiary glosses

7. Sato (1988)
A Redaction A [(A) = uncertain]
B Redaction B [(B) = uncertain]
C Redaction C [(C) = uncertain]
χr Redaction at the level of "A", "B" or "C"
SpE Spätere Einschübungen (later interpolations — major redaction)
QLk Proto-Lukan recension of Q

8. Zeller (1977, 1982, 1984)
Q1 Early Sayings-Complexes
Q Other Q sayings & complexes
Q3 Late Hellenistic-Jewish redaction of Q

DCH :banghead: :cheeky:
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
Posts: 2110
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:19 pm
Location: Leipzig, Germany
Contact:

Re: Recent proposals about Q

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

MrMacSon wrote:Dennis MacDonald thinks Q is tied to Papias

Allan Garrow thinks Q is tied to the Didache
I note with interest that modern Q-scholars tend to ground their theory in relation to texts that really exist or at some point really existed. :thumbup:

DCHindley wrote:6. Kloppenborg (1987, 1990)
Q1 formative (instructional) stratum
Q2 secondary, polemical stratum
Q2r creation of the secondary redaction
Q3 tertiary glosses

7. Sato (1988)
A Redaction A [(A) = uncertain]
B Redaction B [(B) = uncertain]
C Redaction C [(C) = uncertain]
χr Redaction at the level of "A", "B" or "C"
SpE Spätere Einschübungen (later interpolations — major redaction)
QLk Proto-Lukan recension of Q
...
DCH :banghead: :cheeky:
scholars in the sky with diamonds of Q :cheers:
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
Posts: 2110
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:19 pm
Location: Leipzig, Germany
Contact:

Re: Recent proposals about Q

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

DCHindley wrote:
MrMacSon wrote:Allan Garrow ... uses 'Q' (in quotation marks) to denote sayings of Jesus used by Luke and Matthew - but which don't appear in Mark.
That is how I deal with 'Q' as well.
I agree too. I would go so far to claim that there aren't such snobbish things like "logoi" or "sayings" in Mark. ;)
Michael BG
Posts: 665
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 8:02 am

Re: Recent proposals about Q

Post by Michael BG »

MrMacSon wrote:.
Allan Garrow thinks Q is tied to the Didache -

http://www.alangarrow.com/extantq.html
I have now watched the videos. As expected the videos made a detail following of the argument very difficult, made worse by my inability to find in my translation of the Didache by Maxwell Staniforth the sections of the Didache Garrow refers to. An example is that I could not find Mt 5:48 “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect” in Didache 1:4 which I think Garrow states in where Matthew got his version from.

There is another problem. To demonstrate that the Didache is Q Garrow would have to show that every instant where Matthew's version appears earlier than the Luke version Matthew has got his version from the Didache and I don’t think that the Didache covers enough ground for this.
User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8994
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Recent proposals about Q

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Michael BG wrote:
MrMacSon wrote:.
Allan Garrow thinks Q is tied to the Didache -

http://www.alangarrow.com/extantq.html
I have now watched the videos. As expected the videos made a detail following of the argument very difficult, made worse by my inability to find in my translation of the Didache by Maxwell Staniforth the sections of the Didache Garrow refers to. An example is that I could not find Mt 5:48 “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect” in Didache 1:4 which I think Garrow states in where Matthew got his version from.
From memory, Garrow is opining that Matthew got the statement about being perfect from the statement in Didache 1.4 which says that, if you turn the other cheek, you shall be perfect.
There is another problem. To demonstrate that the Didache is Q Garrow would have to show that every instant where Matthew's version appears earlier than the Luke version Matthew has got his version from the Didache and I don’t think that the Didache covers enough ground for this.
Again from memory, Garrow is very careful to claim only that the Didache is an instance of Q (that is, some of what people attribute to Q may actually derive from the Didache instead). There is no claim at all that everything covered by Q is also found in the Didache. He may be wrong, but he is not insane.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ
Post Reply