Be Afraid. Be Very Afraid For. Confirmation 16:8 Original

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JoeWallack
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Re: Be Afraid. Be Very Afraid For. Confirmation 16:8 Origina

Post by JoeWallack »

JW:
As the Columbian said to Scarface in the classic movie of the same name, "Now the (fourth) leg huh" of my review of Daniel Wallace's contribution to Mark 16:8 as the Conclusion to the Second Gospel:

Review of Daniel Wallace Mark 16:8 as the Conclusion to the Second Gospel - Greek Manuscript Evidence
DIRECTION OF CHANGE -
The key underlying question when there are two candidates for original, is the Direction of Change question. What is the evidence indicating the direction of change? Direct evidence is especially valuable. Good indirect evidence also has weight. Again, Wallace repeatedly asks this question throughout but does not formally summarize the related evidence in one place.

1) As noted earlier the earliest extant manuscripts, Sinaiticus and Vaticanus, both have the SE. Clearly the earlier extant candidate is evidence of change from it and here the measurement is the maximum, not just earlier but earliest.

2) Regarding the blank space following GMark in Sinaiticus and the blank space following the Gospels in Vaticanus, Wallace is on the defensive arguing that these spaces are unreMarkable and not necessarily evidence that the Copyist was aware of and considered adding the LE. It's reasonable though to think that at a minimum the blank space in Vaticanus was just such evidence as there are only a few such spaces in Vaticanus and the ending of GMark issue was already famously identified by Eusebius about fifty years earlier. So to have such a space exactly there seems like more than a coincidence.

The blank space then is an invitation to add an ending by the user or at least related notes that there are existing endings. This in fact was Eusebius' attitude. The exemplars, in quality and quantity, had 16:8, but it was acceptable to add/use 16:9-20. Good indirect evidence for Direction of Change. The exemplars, tradition and Scribes had 16:8 as original but it was acceptable to change to the LE.

3) Wallace does a good job identifying another ending to GMark, The Intermediate Ending (IE) and explaining how the related evidence, within the Manuscript category, indicates the IE was generally earlier in the textual tradition than the LE

4) Wallace also does a good job identifying and explaining Scribal notes that indicate either the SE was in earlier Manuscripts or at least there is textual variation for the ending of GMark.

5) Wallace does not formally conclude with the consistency of the evidence for Direction of Change. The above indicate that all related evidence for Direction of Change indicates change from the SE and to the LE. There is no related evidence for change in the other direction.

6) Likewise Wallace does not formally recognize the coordination of the Manuscript evidence with the other categories of evidence:

1. The Difficult Reading Principle makes it more likely at the start that the SE was original.

2. The Patristic category with Eusebius and Jerome provides not only support for SE but evidence of the timing of Change. C. 300-400 the SE dominates in every way, confirmed with Sinaiticus and Vaticanus, the only extant Manuscripts for that time, but Patristic attitude is that it is acceptable or even preferable to change to LE. This also helps explain the rarity of Manuscripts with the SE. They were not wanted by subsequent Christianity.

3. The Manuscript tradition becomes exclusively LE but refers to earlier manuscripts that have SE.
Everyone is welcome to comment except Harvey Dubish.


Joseph

Mark 16:9-20 as Forgery or Fabrication
by Richard Carrier, Ph.D. (2009)
iskander
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Re: Be Afraid. Be Very Afraid For. Confirmation 16:8 Origina

Post by iskander »

JoeWallack wrote:


Yassir Arafat Was Gay

Are you homophobic?
"An Israeli settler has deliberately run over a Palestinian child in the occupied West Bank of city of Yatta south of al-Khalil (Hebron.)
The settler drove over Laith Yousif Shatat, eight, on Wednesday as the child was standing outside his school located in the town’s eastern regions."
http://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2017/05/03 ... hit-khalil
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Re: Be Afraid. Be Very Afraid For. Confirmation 16:8 Origina

Post by rakovsky »

iskander wrote:
JoeWallack wrote:


Yassir Arafat Was Gay

Are you homophobic?
Where did he post this?

And what is Joe's point?

My research on the prophecies of the Messiah's resurrection: http://rakovskii.livejournal.com
iskander
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Re: Be Afraid. Be Very Afraid For. Confirmation 16:8 Origina

Post by iskander »

rakovsky wrote:
iskander wrote:
JoeWallack wrote:


Yassir Arafat Was Gay

Are you homophobic?
Where did he post this?

And what is Joe's point?
Earlier in this thread. He is pointless
JoeWallack wrote:JW:
Steven, here is Black's position on 16:8:
  • 1) Peter gave sermons about Jesus' supposed life.

    2) "Mark" was privately requested to write down Peter's sermons.

    3) After Peter died "Mark" wrote and attached a resurrection reunion and called the whole thing a Gospel for public distribution.
Black is just Catherry-picking Patristic traditions about "Mark". See my Award winning Thread:

The Tale Wagging The Dogma. Which "Mark" Wrote GMark? A Dear John Letter (The Marks Brothers (of the Lord)

I see Black's claim above as qualifying 16:9-20 to be "original". You do not. What's the big deal. Stop being such a Pharisee.


Joseph

Yassir Arafat Was Gay
iskander
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Re: Be Afraid. Be Very Afraid For. Confirmation 16:8 Origina

Post by iskander »

Bernard Muller wrote:
iskander wrote:
Moderators easily intimidate and ban the alien breed invading their territory.
If you wants to oppose spin, you should be prepared to be intimidated and insulted. Better get used to it. And it does not matter for spin if you are atheist or Christian: no discrimination.

Cordially, Bernard
I do not want to oppose anybody Are you saying that Spin is a bully?
iskander
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Re: Be Afraid. Be Very Afraid For. Confirmation 16:8 Origina

Post by iskander »

JoeWallack wrote:[Everyone is welcome to comment except Harvey Dubish.


Joseph

Mark 16:9-20 as Forgery or Fabrication
by Richard Carrier, Ph.D. (2009)


Yes the gospel of Mark ends in 16 :8. It is an elegant ending giving the good news that the Tora curse on mankind was history : Jesus is the one who defeated death as in 16:6, the second Adam. The ending of Mark is the triumphant resurrection of Jesus.
It says 16 :6
6But he said to them, ‘Do not be alarmed; you are looking for Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He has been raised;

There is no need for more, the rest of the story is about people doing a midrash or two :)
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rakovsky
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Re: Be Afraid. Be Very Afraid For. Confirmation 16:8 Origina

Post by rakovsky »

I agree with you, Iskander:
iskander wrote:
Yes the gospel of Mark ends in 16 :8.

The ending of Mark is the triumphant resurrection of Jesus.
It says 16 :6
6But he said to them, ‘Do not be alarmed; you are looking for Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He has been raised;
The youth in the tomb is not implied as telling a lie, but as telling the truth.
It intentionally ends on a cliffhanger, I believe.

The prophets' foretelling that Jesus will resurrect and the process of the virgin birth are not narrated in Mark's gospel, just like, symmetrically, the process of Jesus' resurrection apostles' telling that Jesus did resurrect is not narrated.


This chiastic symmetrical form was a major feature in Mark's gospel, as many scholars have noted.

My research on the prophecies of the Messiah's resurrection: http://rakovskii.livejournal.com
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rakovsky
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Re: Be Afraid. Be Very Afraid For. Confirmation 16:8 Origina

Post by rakovsky »

iskander wrote: Earlier in this thread. He is pointless
JoeWallack wrote:

Yassir Arafat Was Gay
It just looks like a gratuitous political allegation inconvenient for the PLO's narrative. It would be like someone randomly putting in their signature line facts inconvenient for the Israeli historical-political narrative like the existence of Plan Dalet.

My research on the prophecies of the Messiah's resurrection: http://rakovskii.livejournal.com
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Re: Be Afraid. Be Very Afraid For. Confirmation 16:8 Origina

Post by Paul the Uncertain »

rakovsky
It intentionally ends on a cliffhanger, I believe.

The prophets' foretelling that Jesus will resurrect and the process of the virgin birth are not narrated in Mark's gospel, just like, symmetrically, the process of Jesus' resurrection apostles' telling that Jesus did resurrect is not narrated.
"Cliffhanger" connotes a series, that the work which is ending will be followed by another work that continues the story.

Are you proposing that Mark contemplated a "Good News, Volume II" that isn't extant (maybe not ever written, even though planned)?

That would eplain why the opening line refers to GMark as the "beginning" of the gospel. Also, the proposal as proposal would have respectable precedent, in that some try to resolve the abrupt ending of Acts with a lost or never-written "More Acts."

I do agree that verse 16:8 probably was an intentional signal by the author to the audience that "I could have simply ended my story (with the announcement of Jesus' resurrection), but wait - there's more... don't touch that dial!" If a "lost ending" is admissible, then so is a "lost second volume," it seems to me. Rather than "Don't touch that dial," instead "Tune in next week, same time, same channel!"
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Re: Be Afraid. Be Very Afraid For. Confirmation 16:8 Origina

Post by james_C »

why would you end a text with the words
Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.

if the author knew that jesus was waiting near the tomb?

the women are seeking safety in flight.
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