60 Scholars On Messianic Expectation At The Turn Of The Era

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Secret Alias
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Re: 60 Scholars On Messianic Expectation At The Turn Of The

Post by Secret Alias »

After that it was populated by "squatters" who fled when Cyrus the Great (558-529 BC) besieged the city. Then the Greeks in 401 BC found the city deserted.
But that it is also one interpretation of the archaeological evidence. Xenophon makes explicit that the city was taken over by the Medians and that they resisted the Persians under Cyrus. Hard to imagine that to have occurred with the efforts of 'squatters.'
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: 60 Scholars On Messianic Expectation At The Turn Of The

Post by Secret Alias »

Didn't know this either apparently:

The 1979 film "The Warriors" is based on the novel by Sol Yurick, a youth counselor for NYC street gang members, who based his book on Xenophon's "The Anabasis" ["The Persian Expedition"]. The movie is closer to The Anabasis than to Yurick's novel. Some of the names in the movie are linked to The Anabasis (Cyrus, Ajax, etc). Cyrus, leader of the Gramercy Riffs, the most powerful and respected gang in town, is killed. The Warriors, a Native American-themed gang from Coney Island, get blamed for assassinating Cyrus. The Warriors find themselves isolated in unfriendly territory, a hundred angry gangs between themselves and Coney Island. The Warriors aimed to create "tribal feeling of going into battle together, of loyalty, of support and shared goals" and to have "the audiences' sympathy as they fight off all the other gangs in the city". Perhaps a better analogy would be West Side Story meets Escape From New York.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: 60 Scholars On Messianic Expectation At The Turn Of The

Post by Secret Alias »

I thought this was useful too:

Image
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: 60 Scholars On Messianic Expectation At The Turn Of The

Post by Secret Alias »

On the accuracy of Xenophon's description of the city with the archaeological record - https://books.google.com/books?id=Kv0vH ... on&f=false
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Bernard Muller
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Re: 60 Scholars On Messianic Expectation At The Turn Of The

Post by Bernard Muller »

to Secret Alias,
But that it is also one interpretation of the archaeological evidence. Xenophon makes explicit that the city was taken over by the Medians and that they resisted the Persians under Cyrus. Hard to imagine that to have occurred with the efforts of 'squatters.'
In that case, the archaeological evidence may be more reliable than what Xenophon wrote some 150 years later:
Likely, Kalhu was under the control of the Medians for a few years, but I doubt that was the case under the new Neo-Babylonian Empire from 609 to 539 BC, which controlled the area.
In succeeding years, Mesopotamia, including Kalhu, was ruled by the Chaldaean kings of the Neo-Babylonian Empire, until Babylonia was conquered by Cyrus
And the "squatters" did not put much resistance to Cyrus: they fled at the first opportunity.

And I would like to know your reaction on:
I also note Babylon is not qualified as great city, even if, in the time of Ezra, Babylon would be by far the greatest city in Mesopotamia (perhaps of the whole world). I also note that the Medes & Persians are not among the tribes and/or nations listed in Genesis 10.
One more thing:
Gen 10:8-11 "And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth.
He was a mighty hunter before the LORD: wherefore it is said, Even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before the LORD.
And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar.
Out of that land went forth Asshur, and builded Nineveh, and the city Rehoboth, and Calah,"
The direction for the urbanization of Mesopotamia is from Sumeria/Babylonia to Assyria, finishing with Calah, the great city.

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed
Secret Alias
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Re: 60 Scholars On Messianic Expectation At The Turn Of The

Post by Secret Alias »

I am not sure that Xenophon's testimony agrees with the idea that the squatters 'fled at the first opportunity.' Seems to be a gross misrepresentation of his words.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Michael BG
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Re: 60 Scholars On Messianic Expectation At The Turn Of The

Post by Michael BG »

neilgodfrey wrote:
Michael BG wrote:
neilgodfrey wrote: When someone makes a claim for the existence of a certain historical scenario I think it is usually expected for them to provide the evidence for their proposal. That's why I asked you for the evidence for your proposal. I have done nothing more than question the interpretations of the evidence of those who say it speaks of messianism.

I set out my overall views in Myth of widespread messianic expectations early first C

Further details listed at Questioning Carrier and the Conventional Wisdom on Messianic Expectations
I have read the ones concerning Carrier and I think the first three make a strong case that there is more evidence that in the first century BCE there was a higher expectation of the arrival of a Messiah like figure than in the first part of the first century CE.
The irony. We "think" -- with no supporting evidence even mentioned, let alone addressed. No doubt Carrier and others who make the same claims as he also "think" the same. I went through each of Carrier's citations and found them wanting -- lacking the evidence readers were led to understand they carried.

Is there an argument, with reference to evidence, behind what we "think"?
I think you have misunderstood me. This was not a post agreeing with Carrier but one presenting a more grey approach as I was convinced by your posts that there is a lack of evidence for widespread daily concern with an expectation of a Messiah like figure within the lifetime of those alive in the first part of the first century CE.

The way I was presenting this was to say that there is stronger evidence for such a belief in the first century BCE, (I don’t expect you to agree with me) how widespread this belief was is another matter which I had not addressed.

Turning to your posts –

In the first one you discuss the evidence of the Dead Sea scrolls.
I am happy to think that John J Collins might be correct and that the Qumran community was more concerned about the “end” during the second century and early first century BCE. As Collins states (as quoted by you) “we arrive at the conclusion that the “end” was expected about 70 BCE”. He states there was no calculation of a new date, the “end” was delayed and the community kept its belief in a future “end” but without any new timescale. From this I conclude that someone living in the first part of the first century BCE at Qumran would be expecting the “end” soon, but the further from the expected “end” date they lived the less likely they would believe the “end” would be soon. I think this was so for Christians, the earliest Christians believed that the “end” would come within the lifetime of those alive when Jesus was alive, but as time when by they no longer saw the “end” soon but happening sometime in the future but only known to God.

In the second one you quote Horsley, “Almost alone in all of the Jewish literature prior to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 C.E., the Psalms of Solomon assign an “anointed” king a significant role”. I’ll return to this later. Again you quote Horsley with reference to Josephus, “There is no indication that the Fourth Philosophy in 6 C.E., or the Sicarii, the terrorist group active in the 50s C.E. were eschatologically oriented or apocalyptically inspired”.

Turning again to the Psalms of Solomon, I thought I had read in your articles that these were written soon after 63 BCE but I think I was mistaken. I think there is general agreement that they are anti-Hasmonean, they refer to Pompey’s capture and entry into the Temple and Pompey’s death in Egypt in 48 BCE. It states that a new righteous king will raised up by God to rule Israel. In 17:45 there is a call for God to make this happen quickly. Those who read this document in the later part of the first century I think would have an increased belief that this Davidic king would come soon. However again as time goes by this belief would reduce as the "end" didn’t happen.

Therefore I am saying that there is some evidence that in the first century BCE there were some groups of people who were expecting that the “end” would come soon. The evidence for this seems to me to be stronger than the evidence we have in the first part of the first century CE, but I am open to persuasion. The problem is that even the first century BCE evidence does not mean that those expecting an “end” soon would have been a majority of the Jewish population.
John2
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Re: 60 Scholars On Messianic Expectation At The Turn Of The

Post by John2 »

I've been thinking a little more about the idea that the Torah was written by Ezra during the Persian era. While I'm open to it either way, I'm not convinced that "dat" in Dt. 33:2 is Aramaic, but if this is the case I don't think it would affect the idea that Jeremiah wrote Deuteronomy since he uses Aramaic in Jer. 10:11.

Also, if the Torah was written by Ezra with Aramaic letters and (perhaps a few) Aramaic words, then how did it come to be that the Samaritan Torah and some of the biblical DSS were written in paleo-Hebrew?

The one undisputed use of Aramaic in the Torah (Gen. 31:47) makes sense because it is applied to Laban ("Laban called it Jegar Sahadutha, and Jacob called it Galeed") because in Gen. 31:24 he is called an Aramean ("Then God came to Laban the Aramean in a dream at night ..."), and they spoke Aramaic.
The Arameans, or Aramaeans (Aramaic: ܐܪ̈ܡܝܐ‎‎, ʼaramáyé), were an ancient Northwest Semitic Aramaic-speaking tribal confederacy who emerged from Syria in the Late Bronze Age the region known as Aram from the 11th-8th centuries BC. They established a patchwork of independent Aramaic kingdoms in the Levant and seized large tracts of Mesopotamia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arameans
Also, if Deuteronomy did not exist before Ezra, then how did people in Jer. 26 know that false prophets are to be put to death, which is only mentioned in Deuteronomy?

Dt. 18:20:
But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.


Jer. 26:11-16:
Then the priests and the prophets said to the officials and all the people, “This man should be sentenced to death because he has prophesied against this city. You have heard it with your own ears!”

Then Jeremiah said to all the officials and all the people: “The Lord sent me to prophesy against this house and this city all the things you have heard. Now reform your ways and your actions and obey the Lord your God. Then the Lord will relent and not bring the disaster he has pronounced against you. As for me, I am in your hands; do with me whatever you think is good and right. Be assured, however, that if you put me to death, you will bring the guilt of innocent blood on yourselves and on this city and on those who live in it, for in truth the Lord has sent me to you to speak all these words in your hearing.”

Then the officials and all the people said to the priests and the prophets, “This man should not be sentenced to death! He has spoken to us in the name of the Lord our God.”
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
Secret Alias
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Re: 60 Scholars On Messianic Expectation At The Turn Of The

Post by Secret Alias »

Also, if the Torah was written by Ezra with Aramaic letters and (perhaps a few) Aramaic words, then how did it come to be that the Samaritan Torah and some of the biblical DSS were written in paleo-Hebrew?
Let's unpackage this bit by bit.

There was no monolithic 'Samaritan' position on corruption of the scriptures. The various Samaritan groups or at least the Dositheans accused their opponents (Sadducees?) of corruption. The story in Abu'l Fath about Levi assumes that he is 'outed' as a Dosithean because of his variant scripture reading. The idea that 'Ezra' was responsible for the Jewish Pentateuch is much like the way 'Paul' is accused of various things in later Jewish and Islamic literature. Abu'l Fath likely had access to pagan and Christian critiques of the Pentateuch and the assumption that the text was 'Jewish' in these circles and applied the criticism to intercultural debates between Samaritans and Jews. Not a big problem to explain.
Also, if Deuteronomy did not exist before Ezra, then how did people in Jer. 26 know that false prophets are to be put to death, which is only mentioned in Deuteronomy?
When was Jeremiah written? These are all pseudepigraphal texts. Moreover the Samaritan text of Exodus has a 'blending' of elements from Deuteronomy (at least seen from the POV of our canon). With the Qumran community these 'appropriations' of things 'in Deuteronomy' (from our retarded POV again) are heightened not lessened. To this end who knows what the full text of Exodus looked like at Qumran.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
John2
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Re: 60 Scholars On Messianic Expectation At The Turn Of The

Post by John2 »

When was Jeremiah written? These are all pseudepigraphal texts. Moreover the Samaritan text of Exodus has a 'blending' of elements from Deuteronomy (at least seen from the POV of our canon). With the Qumran community these 'appropriations' of things 'in Deuteronomy' (from our retarded POV again) are heightened not lessened. To this end who knows what the full text of Exodus looked like at Qumran.
Doesn't this "blending" in the Samaritan text of Exodus of elements from Deuteronomy indicate that Deuteronomy pre-dates Ezra?
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
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