"the brothers who were in Pontus": Marcion's? John's? Both?

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"the brothers who were in Pontus": Marcion's? John's? Both?

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Putting Papias in Order

… yet another collection of the fragments of Papias, indebted to Chronicon and Text Excavation and Hypotyposeis and, of course, the giants whose shoulders they stand on. The translations are copied from T.C. Schmidt’s Chronicon page and Ben C. Smith’s Text Excavation page except where otherwise indicated; those translations that are under copyright are presented here under the fair use doctrine. Please refer to these sources for more information about the quotes, their translations, and some of the original language texts.

The purpose of this list is that a different arrangement, by book and subject matter in Papias, could help me study the fragments of Papias better. I hope it helps others also. I have tried to err on the side of caution when attributing references to a certain book in Papias, going by the indications in the writers who quote Papias instead of devising a hypothesis about the scheme of the author’s work, which must be derived from such data.

I’ve made an attempt at being inclusive regarding hypothetical and even dubious claims of fragments belonging to Papias, which are presented for the reader to test for themselves and keep what is good.

  • < . . snip . . >
(R) Book I (Presumably): Authorship of the Gospel of John

(R) (1) .....

(R) (2) (i) "The Gospel of John was made known and given to the Churches by John, while he yet remained in the body; as (one) Papias by name, of Hierapolis, a beloved disciple of John, has related in his exoteric, that is, in his last five books; but he wrote down the Gospel at the dictation of John, correctly. But Marcion the heretic, when he had been censured by him because he held heretical opinions, was cast off by John. Now he had brought writings or letters delivered to him from the brethren that were in Pontus."
Preface to John, Vat. Reg. lat 14, J. B. Lightfoot’s translation

(R) (2) (ii) "The Gospel of John, even during his lifetime, was published and distributed to the churches, as Papias, called the Hierpolitan, the beloved disciple of John, has reported in his explications (?), namely the last (?) five books. But Marcion, the heretic, described/wrote down the/a Gospel, while John dictated correctly the true one. Since he [Marcion] has been disapproved by him[John], for him [John] having got to know the Antitheses of him [Marcion], John rebuked him. He [Marcion], indeed, had brought him writings or letters from the brethren who were in Pontus."
Preface to John, Vat. Reg. lat 14, Markus Vincent’s translation (link)

(R) (2) (iii) "This gospel, then, after the apocalypse was written was made manifest and given to the churches in Asia by John, as yet still in the body, as the Heiropolitan, Papias by name, dear disciple of John, transmitted in his Exoteric, that is, the outside five books. He wrote down this gospel while John dictated. Truly Marcion the heretic, when he had been disapproved by him because he supposed contrary things, was thrown out by John. He in truth carried writings or epistles sent to him from the brothers who were in Pontus, faithful in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Preface to John, Vat. Reg. lat 14, Ben C. Smith’s translation (link)

(R) (2) (iv) "The Gospel of John was made public and given to the churches by John when he was still alive; as Papias by name, of Hierapolis, dear disciple of John, recalled in the “exoteric”, that is the outside, five books; he in fact wrote down the gospel as John was directly stating the truth. Yet Marcion the heretic when he had been rejected by him because he supposed contrary matters was expelled. He even brought him the writings and letters by John from the brothers who were in Pontus."
Preface to John, Vat. Reg. lat 14, S.C. Carlson’s translation (link)

http://peterkirby.com/putting-papias-in-order.html
I'm interested in

(1) who disproved (or censured or rejected) Marcion: Papias or John?
  • Vinzent says, in R 2 (ii) it was John, but I'm not so sure.
(2) who "the brothers or brethren who were in Pontus" might be, and


(3) 'who' brought or sent "whom" letters from these brothers/brethren:-

  • (ii)Vinzent says it was Marcion who brought letters; but, to me, at least, it is not clear if he brought the letters to John or to Papias*



    (i) J. B. Lightfoot’s translation says letters from the brethren were delivered to someone ie. 'he', then 'he' brought them to "him"
    • "Now he had brought writings or letters delivered to him from the brethren that were in Pontus."
    From the previous sentence, 'he' would seem to be Marcion, as per Vinzent, so it seems that "him" would also be Marcion
  • (iii) Ben Smith's translation says
    • "He in truth carried writings or epistles sent to him from the brothers who were in Pontus, faithful in Christ Jesus our Lord."
    So, like Lightfoot's translation, 'he' and "him" seem to be the same person, and that person, from the previous sentence, seems to be Marcion
  • (iv) S.C. Carlson’s translation says the letters were by John, which seems to make 'he' and "him" to be two separate persons other than John -
    • "He even brought him the writings and letters by John from the brothers who were in Pontus."
* It may not matter if the letters were brought to John or to Papias if Papias was doing the writing, but it leaves open the possibility that Papias was transcribing or writing things independent of John.

There are a few other issues raised, such as, from S.C. Carlson's translation, if the letters were by John why were they in the possession of brothers in Pontus? Was John based there at some stage?

If the letters were brought by Marcion, as seems to b the case in Vinzent & Lightfott's translations, it seems those letters were from the brothers or brethren in Pontus.

If, as in Ben's translation, "He in truth carried writings or epistles sent to him from the brothers who were in Pontus, faithful in Christ Jesus our Lord", 'He' was unlikely to have been in Pontus when they were sent.

It is also interesting that there might have been brothers of Marcion considered "faithful in Christ Jesus".

If "He even brought him the writings and letters by John from the brothers who were in Pontus", as per S.C. Carlson’s translation, what is the significance of "the brothers who were in Pontus" having "writings and letters by John". Had John been based in Pontus? Was there more than one John?

Were John and Marcion in Pontus yet was Papias writing elsewhere?

.
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Re: "the brothers who were in Pontus": Marcion's? John's? Bo

Post by Peter Kirby »

One of the most remarkable (and perhaps one of the most overlooked) things about this passage is the description of the five books of Papias as the "exoteric" books, which confirms a distinction between the "esoteric" and "exoteric" Christian teaching, for Papias, someone of relatively early date who is generally claimed for orthodox/catholic tradition.
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Re: "the brothers who were in Pontus": Marcion's? John's? Bo

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Peter Kirby wrote:One of the most remarkable (and perhaps one of the most overlooked) things about this passage is the description of the five books of Papias as the "exoteric" books, which confirms a distinction between the "esoteric" and "exoteric" Christian teaching, for Papias; someone of relatively early date who is generally claimed for orthodox/catholic tradition.
Yes, I briefly thought about that, and about mentioning it, but thought I'd initially just go with the latter part.
Lightfoot:-
(R) (2) (i)"The Gospel of John was made known and given to the Churches by John ...as one, Papias ..a beloved disciple of John, has related in his exoteric (i.e. in his last five books); but he wrote down the Gospel at the dictation of John, correctly."

Vinzent:-
(R) (2) (ii) "The Gospel of John, ...was published and distributed to the churches, as Papias ..the beloved disciple of John, has reported in his explications, namely the last five books. But Marcion, the heretic, described/wrote down the/a Gospel, while John dictated correctly the true one."

Ben Smith:-
(R) (2) (iii) "This gospel, then, after the apocalypse was written, was made manifest and given to the churches in Asia by John ..as the Heiropolitan, Papias.. dear disciple of John, transmitted in his Exoteric, (i.e. the outside five books). He wrote down this gospel while John dictated."

Carlson:-
(R) (2) (iv) "The Gospel of John was made public and given to the churches by John when he was still alive; as Papias ..dear disciple of John, recalled in the “exoteric”, that is the outside, five books; he in fact wrote down the gospel as John was directly stating the truth."
It would be fascinating to have the five books of Exposition of the Sayings of the Lord (Λογίων Κυριακῶν Ἐξήγησις) or to know what they said.
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Re: "the brothers who were in Pontus": Marcion's? John's? Bo

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Peter Kirby wrote:One of the most remarkable (and perhaps one of the most overlooked) things about this passage is the description of the five books of Papias as the "exoteric" books, which confirms a distinction between the "esoteric" and "exoteric" Christian teaching, for Papias, someone of relatively early date who is generally claimed for orthodox/catholic tradition.
I think that the esotericism of Papias' books were that he spoke of a superabundant earthly kingdom of God here on earth, the duration of which was not stated but could be 400 yrs (in one of the Judean apocryphal revelations, I forget which), 1,000 yrs (like John's Apocalypse), or 10,000 years (= "forever"). To Eusebius the fact that he took these "obvious" allegories literally was proof positive that P was not "not too bright" mentally. In Eusebius' day, the believers would be resurrected on the last day to live eternally in a heavenly paradise.

Even so, Eusebius was not totally against everything P said. E doesn't tell us what was OK in his view, but there must have been exhibited a kind of higher Christology, or perhaps some other things consonant with what Christians believed Jesus taught in the Gospels. The saying about the grape clusters being so big is also found in chapter 29 of the Syriac Apocalypse of Baruch (aka 2 Baruch). I'm not saying (pausing while taking a step back) that one document influenced the other directly, but it was consonant with the thinking of some Syriac speaking Judeans as well as that of Christians of Papias' type, maybe circa 80 CE to 150 CE (just my guess!!!).

Eusebius was just pissed that P was so out of touch with Christian thinking that his veneration by some Christians of E's day could threaten Constantine's advocacy of the "straight-thinking" Christians. Of course, P would have to have been prescient, which he apparently, like the rest of us, was not, but E does need to explain this away, and he decided that P had not been allegorical enough, because if he had, he would naturally have seen it E's way.

By comparison, Hegesippus was much closer to Eusebius' opinions about what constitutes "straight thinking" among Christians. In E's opinion, H was priceless! That tells me that H was writing to edify fellow Christians of his day, as he says absolutely nothing offensive or out of synch with even the Christianity of E's day.

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Re: "the brothers who were in Pontus": Marcion's? John's? Bo

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I am not convinced anything about the temporal placement of Papias is accurate. Eusubius is not reliable. You have to almost completely discount it without corroborating evidence. He seems to fit into the whole 4th century fictional history meant to bridge the gap between the confirm-able Christian history of the mid-2nd century and the darkness before Antoninus' reign. Eusubius as a chronicler filled the gaps inventively.

Peter mentioned the exoteric teaching is an example of where an internal reading suggests the material --lost except excerpts of unknown fidelity quoted by Eusubius-- is more consistent with a later era than Eusubius places Papias. It could also be the writings are in fact from a later anonymous writer borrowing Papias' legend for the writings. This would not be the first time that happened, nor the last.
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Re: "the brothers who were in Pontus": Marcion's? John's? Bo

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It is difficult to know what to make of the passage but Stuart's myopia regarding Marion is clear. His slavish devotion to his preferred sources - Tertullian and Epiphanius -speaks volumes here. At least Papias might have had some direct evidence about Marcion and/or Marcionites. His preferred sources were working from earlier sources with only indirect knowledge of the phenomenon they were writing about. It's always murky with unreliable evidence like this. I happen to think T and E were using a common source albeit mutated beyond recognition as Patristic texts often were
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Re: "the brothers who were in Pontus": Marcion's? John's? Bo

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There are references to 'preface to John' here - https://archive.org/stream/MN41506ucmf_ ... 0_djvu.txt -

viz. - "THE ENIGMA OF THE FOURTH GOSPEL. ITS AUTHOR AND ITS WRITER" by ROBERT EISLER, PhD (1938)
I'm not sure of their significance.
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Re: "the brothers who were in Pontus": Marcion's? John's? Bo

Post by Ben C. Smith »

DCHindley wrote:
Peter Kirby wrote:One of the most remarkable (and perhaps one of the most overlooked) things about this passage is the description of the five books of Papias as the "exoteric" books, which confirms a distinction between the "esoteric" and "exoteric" Christian teaching, for Papias, someone of relatively early date who is generally claimed for orthodox/catholic tradition.
I think that the esotericism of Papias' books were that he spoke of a superabundant earthly kingdom of God here on earth, the duration of which was not stated but could be 400 yrs (in one of the Judean apocryphal revelations, I forget which), 1,000 yrs (like John's Apocalypse), or 10,000 years (= "forever").
The 400 years come from 4 Ezra 7.28.
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Re: "the brothers who were in Pontus": Marcion's? John's? Bo

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Here is the passage in question:

When I had finished speaking these words, the angel who had been sent to me on the former nights was sent to me again, and he said to me, "Rise, Ezra, and listen to the words that I have come to speak to you." I said, "Speak, my lord." And he said to me, "There is a sea set in a wide expanse so that it is broad and vast, but it has an entrance set in a narrow place, so that it is like a river. If any one, then, wishes to reach the sea, to look at it or to navigate it, how can he come to the broad part unless he passes through the narrow part? Another example: There is a city built and set on a plain, and it is full of all good things; but the entrance to it is narrow and set in a precipitous place, so that there is fire on the right hand and deep water on the left; and there is only one path lying between them, that is, between the fire and the water, so that only one man can walk upon that path. If now that city is given to a man for an inheritance, how will the heir receive his inheritance unless he passes through the danger set before him?" I said, "He cannot, lord." And he said to me, "So also is Israel's portion. For I made the world for their sake, and when Adam transgressed my statutes, what had been made was judged. And so the entrances of this world were made narrow and sorrowful and toilsome; they are few and evil, full of dangers and involved in great hardships. But the entrances of the greater world are broad and safe, and really yield the fruit of immortality. Therefore unless the living pass through the difficult and vain experiences, they can never receive those things that have been reserved for them. But now why are you disturbed, seeing that you are to perish? And why are you moved, seeing that you are mortal? And why have you not considered in your mind what is to come, rather than what is now present?"

Then I answered and said, "O sovereign Lord, behold, thou hast ordained in thy law that the righteous shall inherit these things, but that the ungodly shall perish. The righteous therefore can endure difficult circumstances while hoping for easier ones; but those who have done wickedly have suffered the difficult circumstances and will not see the easier ones." And he said to me, "You are not a better judge than God, or wiser than the Most High! Let many perish who are now living, rather than that the law of God which is set before them be disregarded! For God strictly commanded those who came into the world, when they came, what they should do to live, and what they should observe to avoid punishment. Nevertheless they were not obedient, and spoke against him; they devised for themselves vain thoughts, and proposed to themselves wicked frauds; they even declared that the Most High does not exist, and they ignored his ways! They scorned his law, and denied his covenants; they have been unfaithful to his statutes, and have not performed his works.

"Therefore, Ezra, empty things are for the empty, and full things are for the full. For behold, the time will come, when the signs which I have foretold to you will come to pass, that the city which now is not seen shall appear, and the land which now is hidden shall be disclosed. And every one who has been delivered from the evils that I have foretold shall see my wonders. For my son the Messiah shall be revealed with those who are with him, and those who remain shall rejoice four hundred years. And after these years my son the Messiah shall die, and all who draw human breath. And the world shall be turned back to primeval silence for seven days, as it was at the first beginnings; so that no one shall be left. And after seven days the world, which is not yet awake, shall be roused, and that which is corruptible shall perish. And the earth shall give up those who are asleep in it, and the dust those who dwell silently in it; and the chambers shall give up the souls which have been committed to them. And the Most High shall be revealed upon the seat of judgment, and compassion shall pass away, and patience shall be withdrawn; but only judgment shall remain, truth shall stand, and faithfulness shall grow strong. And recompense shall follow, and the reward shall be manifested; righteous deeds shall awake, and unrighteous deeds shall not sleep. Then the pit of torment shall appear, and opposite it shall be the place of rest; and the furnace of hell shall be disclosed, and opposite it the paradise of delight. Then the Most High will say to the nations that have been raised from the dead, `Look now, and understand whom you have denied, whom you have not served, whose commandments you have despised! Look on this side and on that; here are delight and rest, and there are fire and torments!' Thus he will speak to them on the day of judgment -- a day that has no sun or moon or stars, or cloud or thunder or lightning or wind or water or air, or darkness or evening or morning, or summer or spring or heat or winter or frost or cold or hail or rain or dew, or noon or night, or dawn or shining or brightness or light, but only the splendor of the glory of the Most High, by which all shall see what has been determined for them. For it will last for about a week of years. This is my judgment and its prescribed order; and to you alone have I shown these things."

I answered and said, "O sovereign Lord, I said then and I say now: Blessed are those who are alive and keep thy commandments! But what of those for whom I prayed? For who among the living is there that has not sinned, or who among men that has not transgressed thy covenant? And now I see that the world to come will bring delight to few, but torments to many. For an evil heart has grown up in us, which has alienated us from God, and has brought us into corruption and the ways of death, and has shown us the paths of perdition and removed us far from life -- and that not just a few of us but almost all who have been created!"

He answered me and said, "Listen to me, Ezra, and I will instruct you, and will admonish you yet again. For this reason the Most High has made not one world but two. For whereas you have said that the righteous are not many but few, while the ungodly abound, hear the explanation for this. "If you have just a few precious stones, will you add to them lead and clay?" I said, "Lord, how could that be?" And he said to me, "Not only that, but ask the earth and she will tell you; defer to her, and she will declare it to you. Say to her, `You produce gold and silver and brass, and also iron and lead and clay; but silver is more abundant than gold, and brass than silver, and iron than brass, and lead than iron, and clay than lead.' Judge therefore which things are precious and desirable, those that are abundant or those that are rare?" I said, "O sovereign Lord, what is plentiful is of less worth, for what is more rare is more precious."

He answered me and said, "Weigh within yourself what you have thought, for he who has what is hard to get rejoices more than he who has what is plentiful. So also will be the judgment which I have promised; for I will rejoice over the few who shall be saved, because it is they who have made my glory to prevail now, and through them my name has now been honored. And I will not grieve over the multitude of those who perish; for it is they who are now like a mist, and are similar to a flame and smoke -- they are set on fire and burn hotly, and are extinguished." I replied and said, "O earth, what have you brought forth, if the mind is made out of the dust like the other created things! For it would have been better if the dust itself had not been born, so that the mind might not have been made from it. But now the mind grows with us, and therefore we are tormented, because we perish and know it. Let the human race lament, but let the beasts of the field be glad; let all who have been born lament, but let the four-footed beasts and the flocks rejoice! For it is much better with them than with us; for they do not look for a judgment, nor do they know of any torment or salvation promised to them after death. For what does it profit us that we shall be preserved alive but cruelly tormented? For all who have been born are involved in iniquities, and are full of sins and burdened with transgressions. And if we were not to come into judgment after death, perhaps it would have been better for us."

He answered me and said, "When the Most High made the world and Adam and all who have come from him, he first prepared the judgment and the things that pertain to the judgment. And now understand from your own words, for you have said that the mind grows with us. For this reason, therefore, those who dwell on earth shall be tormented, because though they had understanding they committed iniquity, and though they received the commandments they did not keep them, and though they obtained the law they dealt unfaithfully with what they received. What, then, will they have to say in the judgment, or how will they answer in the last times? For how long the time is that the Most High has been patient with those who inhabit the world, and not for their sake, but because of the times which he has foreordained!" I answered and said, "If I have found favor in thy sight, O Lord, show this also to thy servant: whether after death, as soon as every one of us yields up his soul, we shall be kept in rest until those times come when thou wilt renew the creation, or whether we shall be tormented at once?"

He answered me and said, "I will show you that also, but do not be associated with those who have shown scorn, nor number yourself among those who are tormented. For you have a treasure of works laid up with the Most High; but it will not be shown to you until the last times. Now, concerning death, the teaching is: When the decisive decree has gone forth from the Most High that a man shall die, as the spirit leaves the body to return again to him who gave it, first of all it adores the glory of the Most High. And if it is one of those who have shown scorn and have not kept the way of the Most High, and who have despised his law, and who have hated those who fear God -- such spirits shall not enter into habitations, but shall immediately wander about in torments, ever grieving and sad, in seven ways.

The first way, because they have scorned the law of the Most High.
The second way, because they cannot now make a good repentance that they may live.
The third way, they shall see the reward laid up for those who have trusted the covenants of the Most High.
The fourth way, they shall consider the torment laid up for themselves in the last days.
The fifth way, they shall see how the habitations of the others are guarded by angels in profound quiet.
The sixth way, they shall see how some of them will pass over into torments.
The seventh way, which is worse than all the ways that have been mentioned, because they shall utterly waste away in confusion and be consumed with shame, and shall wither with fear at seeing the glory of the Most High before whom they sinned while they were alive, and before whom they are to be judged in the last times.

Now this is the order of those who have kept the ways of the Most High, when they shall be separated from their mortal body. During the time that they lived in it, they laboriously served the Most High, and withstood danger every hour, that they might keep the law of the Lawgiver perfectly. Therefore this is the teaching concerning them: First of all, they shall see with great joy the glory of him who receives them, for they shall have rest in seven orders.

The first order, because they have striven with great effort to overcome the evil thought which was formed with them, that it might not lead them astray from life into death.
The second order, because they see the perplexity in which the souls of the ungodly wander, and the punishment that awaits them.
The third order, they see the witness which he who formed them bears concerning them, that while they were alive they kept the law which was given them in trust.
The fourth order, they understand the rest which they now enjoy, being gathered into their chambers and guarded by angels in profound quiet, and the glory which awaits them in the last days.
The fifth order, they rejoice that they have now escaped what is corruptible, and shall inherit what is to come; and besides they see the straits and toil from which they have been delivered, and the spacious liberty which they are to receive and enjoy in immortality.
The sixth order, when it is shown to them how their face is to shine like the sun, and how they are to be made like the light of the stars, being incorruptible from then on.
4The seventh order, which is greater than all that have been mentioned, because they shall rejoice with boldness, and shall be confident without confusion, and shall be glad without fear, for they hasten to behold the face of him whom they served in life and from whom they are to receive their reward when glorified.

This is the order of the souls of the righteous, as henceforth is announced; and the aforesaid are the ways of torment which those who would not give heed shall suffer hereafter." I answered and said, "Will time therefore be given to the souls, after they have been separated from the bodies, to see what you have described to me?"

He said to me, "They shall have freedom for seven days, so that during these seven days they may see the things of which you have been told, and afterwards they shall be gathered in their habitations." I answered and said, "If I have found favor in thy sight, show further to me, thy servant, whether on the day of judgment the righteous will be able to intercede for the ungodly or to entreat the Most High for them, fathers for sons or sons for parents, brothers for brothers, relatives for their kinsmen, or friends for those who are most dear."

He answered me and said, "Since you have found favor in my sight, I will show you this also. The day of judgment is decisive and displays to all the seal of truth. Just as now a father does not send his son, or a son his father, or a master his servant, or a friend his dearest friend, to be ill or sleep or eat or be healed in his stead, so no one shall ever pray for another on that day, neither shall any one lay a burden on another; for then every one shall bear his own righteousness and unrighteousness." I answered and said, "How then do we find that first (1) Abraham prayed for the people of Sodom, and (2) Moses for our fathers who sinned in the desert, and (3) Joshua after him for Israel in the days of Achan, and (4) Samuel in the days of Saul, and (5) David for the plague, and Solomon for those in the sanctuary, (6) Elijah for those who received the rain, and for the one who was dead, that he might live, (7) Hezekiah for the people in the days of Sennacherib, and many others prayed for many? If therefore the righteous have prayed for the ungodly now, when corruption has increased and unrighteousness has multiplied, why will it not be so then as well?"

He answered me and said, "This present world is not the end; the full glory does not abide in it; therefore those who were strong prayed for the weak. But the day of judgment will be the end of this age and the beginning of the immortal age to come, in which corruption has passed away, sinful indulgence has come to an end, unbelief has been cut off, and righteousness has increased and truth has appeared. Therefore no one will then be able to have mercy on him who has been condemned in the judgment, or to harm him who is victorious." I answered and said, "This is my first and last word, that it would have been better if the earth had not produced Adam, or else, when it had produced him, had restrained him from sinning. For what good is it to all that they live in sorrow now and expect punishment after death? O Adam, what have you done? For though it was you who sinned, the fall was not yours alone, but ours also who are your descendants. For what good is it to us, if an eternal age has been promised to us, but we have done deeds that bring death? And what good is it that an everlasting hope has been promised to us, but we have miserably failed? Or that safe and healthful habitations have been reserved for us, but we have lived wickedly? Or that the glory of the Most High will defend those who have led a pure life, but we have walked in the most wicked ways? Or that a paradise shall be revealed, whose fruit remains unspoiled and in which are abundance and healing, but we shall not enter it, because we have lived in unseemly places? Or that the faces of those who practiced self-control shall shine more than the stars, but our faces shall be blacker than darkness? For while we lived and committed iniquity we did not consider what we should suffer after death."

He answered and said, "This is the meaning of the contest which every man who is born on earth shall wage, that if he is defeated he shall suffer what you have said, but if he is victorious he shall receive what I have said. For this is the way of which Moses, while he was alive, spoke to the people, saying, `Choose for yourself life, that you may live!' But they did not believe him, or the prophets after him, or even myself who have spoken to them. Therefore there shall not be grief at their destruction, so much as joy over those to whom salvation is assured." I answered and said, "I know, O Lord, that the Most High is now called merciful, because he has mercy on those who have not yet come into the world; and gracious, because he is gracious to those who turn in repentance to his law; and patient, because he shows patience toward those who have sinned, since they are his own works; and bountiful, because he would rather give than take away; and abundant in compassion, because he makes his compassions abound more and more to those now living and to those who are gone and to those yet to come, for if he did not make them abound, the world with those who inhabit it would not have life; and he is called giver, because if he did not give out of his goodness so that those who have committed iniquities might be relieved of them, not one ten-thousandth of mankind could have life; and judge, because if he did not pardon those who were created by his word and blot out the multitude of their sins, there would probably be left only very few of the innumerable multitude."
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
Posts: 18767
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: "the brothers who were in Pontus": Marcion's? John's? Bo

Post by Secret Alias »

For me at least these things are clear:

1. the Christian group which embraced or produced this text cannot have been Samaritan given the fact that the Samaritans despise Ezra. The 'heretics' are almost always described as connected in some form with Samaritanism.
2. there is an interest in seven heavens which might be related to the reports of Celsus about Christian groups.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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