The Results of Previous Studies of Marcion Are Worthless

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Post Reply
Secret Alias
Posts: 18922
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: The Results of Previous Studies of Marcion Are Worthless

Post by Secret Alias »

4. For he remembered that the time was come of which the Psalm spake, "Let us break their bands asunder, and cast off their yoke from us; "110 since the time when "the nations became tumultuous, and the people imagined vain counsels; "when "the kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against His Christ,"111 in order that thenceforward man might be justified by the liberty of faith, not by servitude to the law,112 "because the just shall live by his faith."113 [9] Now, although the prophet Habakkuk first said this, yet you have the apostle here confirming the prophets, even as Christ did. The object, therefore, of the faith whereby the just man shall live, will be that same God to whom likewise belongs the law, by doing which no man is justified. Since, then, there equally are found the curse in the law and the blessing in faith, you have both conditions set forth by114 the Creator: "Behold," says He, "I have set before you a blessing and a curse."115 You cannot establish a diversity of authors because there happens to be one of things; for the diversity is itself proposed by one and the same author. [5.3.9]
So after the last example we have effectively proved - or made it almost irrefutable (it would mean that Marcion and Irenaeus shared the same understanding that the apostle submitted to the other apostles). Now we have an interesting example of the author:

a. claiming that Marcion said one thing - i.e. that the OT and NT are associated with two hostile gods

but now

b. 'demonstrating' that Paul used Habakkuk thereby rendering (a) ridiculous. But were the Marcionites that ridiculous? Did they actually have the passage in Habakkuk or - as I would have it - the author is simply using his edition of Galatians. Notice the argumentation in the second part of the passage:
You cannot establish a diversity of authors because there happens to be one of things; for the diversity is itself proposed by one and the same author. Why, however, "Christ was made a curse for us,"116 is declared by the apostle himself in a way which quite helps our side, as being the result of the Creator's appointment. [10] But yet it by no means follows, because the Creator said of old, "Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree,"117 that Christ belonged to another god, and on that account was accursed even then in the law.
This seems entirely theoretical. This is not something that the Marcionites DID say but a 'Marcionite interpretation' of something that was in the author's edition of Galatians. To this end, it is not an attestation again of what is in the Marcionite canon but only that the author is raising theoretical arguments about how a Marcionite would interpret things from a common text.
5. "But," says he, "I speak after the manner of men: when we were children, we were placed in bondage under the elements of the world."131 This, however, was not said "after the manner of men." For there is no figure132 here, but literal truth. [5.4.1]
This is interesting. Yes it does speak to knowledge about what heretics said about the passage but speaks against any direct knowledge of the text. Indeed if the author was really examining a Marcionite edition of Galatians you'd expect small deviations throughout the body of the text. Instead we have A SINGLE ALLUSION to textual variation. This is utterly incredible. Two verbatim editions of the same text held in common by two hostile communities. Absolutely impossible. So this is NOT an examination of the Marcionite edition of Galatians but rather (i) a discussion developed from the author's edition of Galatians based on (ii) things known about the Marcionites and their interpretation of scripture - even sometimes specific passages and (iii) things Marcionites MIGHT have said if they were confronted with a specific passage.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 8892
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: The Results of Previous Studies of Marcion Are Worthless

Post by MrMacSon »

MrMacSon wrote:
Secret Alias wrote: In Irenaeus 'Marcion' takes the place of Marcellina in Hegesippus, a text which seems to predate Irenaeus ...
In Adversus Haers? or other texts [as well]?
A search for 'Marcion' in Irenaeus's Against Heresies produced the following -

Against Heresies Book I, Chapter 27

1. Cerdo was one who took his system from the followers of Simon, and came to live at Rome in the time of Hyginus, who held the ninth place in the episcopal succession from the apostles downwards. He taught that the God proclaimed by the law and the prophets was not the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the former was known, but the latter unknown; while the one also was righteous, but the other benevolent.

2. Marcion of Pontus succeeded him, and developed his doctrine. In so doing, he advanced the most daring blasphemy against Him who is proclaimed as God by the law and the prophets, declaring Him to be the author of evils, to take delight in war, to be infirm of purpose, and even to be contrary to Himself. But Jesus being derived from that father who is above the God that made the world, and coming into Judæa in the times of Pontius Pilate the governor, who was the procurator of Tiberius Cæsar, was manifested in the form of a man to those who were in Judæa, abolishing the prophets and the law, and all the works of that God who made the world, whom also he calls Cosmocrator. - http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103127.htm
Against Heresies Book II, Chapter 3

1. The Bythus, therefore, whom they conceive of with his Pleroma, and the God of Marcion, are inconsistent. If indeed, as they affirm, he has something subjacent and beyond himself, which they style vacuity and shadow, this vacuum is then proved to be greater than their Pleroma. But it is inconsistent even to make this statement, that while he contains all things within himself, the creation was formed by some other...
Against Heresies Book III, Chapter 4 - http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103304.htm

Against Heresies Book III, Chapter 12 - http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103312.htm

Against Heresies Book IV, Chapter 6 - http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103406.htm
Secret Alias
Posts: 18922
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: The Results of Previous Studies of Marcion Are Worthless

Post by Secret Alias »

Yes Irenaeus and his backdating in Justin (cf Evans evidence for manipulation of Justin's works c. 196 CE i.e. the time of Irenaeus) are the start of 'Marcion.'
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
User avatar
Peter Kirby
Site Admin
Posts: 8629
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:13 pm
Location: Santa Clara
Contact:

Re: The Results of Previous Studies of Marcion Are Worthless

Post by Peter Kirby »

Secret Alias wrote:cf Evans evidence for manipulation of Justin's works c. 196 CE i.e. the time of Irenaeus
Sometimes I'd (sort of) like to follow these references, but it'd be easier with something more to go on.

Okay, first page...
Secret Alias wrote:The first mention of Galatians in the twin texts of Adv Marc 4 and 5 appear in chapter 3 of Book Four:
In the scheme of Marcion, on the contrary, the mystery of the Christian religion begins from the discipleship of Luke. Since, however, it was on its course previous to that point, it must have had68 its own authentic materials,69 by means of which it found its own way down to St. Luke; and by the assistance of the testimony which it bore, Luke himself becomes admissible. [2] Well, but70 Marcion, finding the Epistle of Paul to the Galatians (wherein he rebukes even apostles71 ) for "not walking uprightly according to the truth of the gospel,"72 as well as accuses certain false apostles of perverting the gospel of Christ), labours very hard to destroy the character73 of those Gospels which are published as genuine74 and under the name of apostles, in order, forsooth, to secure for his own Gospel the credit which he takes away from them. But then, even if he censures Peter and John and James, who were thought to be pillars, it is for a manifest reason. They seemed to be changing their company75 from respect of persons. And yet as Paul himself "became all things to all men,"76 that he might gain all, it was possible that Peter also might have betaken himself to the same plan of practising somewhat different from what he taught. [4] And, in like manner, if false apostles also crept in, their character too showed itself in their insisting upon circumcision and the Jewish ceremonies. So that it was not on account of their preaching, but of their conversation, that they were marked by St. Paul, who would with equal impartiality have marked them with censure, if they had erred at all with respect to God the Creator or His Christ. Each several case will therefore have to be distinguished. When Marcion complains that apostles are suspected (for their prevarication and dissimulation) of having even depraved the gospel, he thereby accuses Christ, by accusing those whom Christ chose. If, then, the apostles, who are censured simply for inconsistency of walk, composed the Gospel in a pure form,77 but false apostles interpolated their true record; and if our own copies have been made from these,78 where will that genuine text79 of the apostle's writings be found which has not suffered adulteration? Which was it that enlightened Paul, and through him Luke? It is either completely blotted out, as if by some deluge----being obliterated by the inundation of falsifiers----in which case even Marcion does not possess the true Gospel; [5] or else, is that very edition which Marcion alone possesses the true one, that is, of the apostles? How, then, does that agree with ours, which is said not to be (the work) of apostles, but of Luke? Or else, again, if that which Marcion uses is not to be attributed to Luke simply because it does agree with ours (which, of course,80 is, also adulterated in its title), then it is the work of apostles. Our Gospel, therefore, which is in agreement with it, is equally the work of apostles, but also adulterated in its title.
Where do you start with this? Galatians has been constructed to be a discussion of the origin of the gospel. Do you notice that the chapter begins with a Catholic assertion about the origin of the gospel?

Evans translates the first sentence as a conditional statement:
It is another matter if in Marcion's opinion the Christian religion, with its sacred content, begins with the discipleship of Luke.
Why is this significant? Because by the last sentence of the section it is clear the Marcionites did not accept the Catholic proposition regarding - i.e. the priority of Luke. We read again in Evans:
Or if that which Marcion has in use is not at once to be attributed to Luke because it does agree with ours—though they allege ours is falsified in respect of its title—then it does belong to the apostles. And in that case ours too, which is in agreement with that other, no less belongs to the apostles, even if it too is falsified in its title.
So the only think that is known for certain is that the Marcionite gospel was not 'according to Luke.' The author says that it really is a falsified version of Luke. But he makes clear the Marcionite would have denied this proposition.

What is so downright bizarre is that the discussion in Galatians 2 is alleged to be the story of the Marcionite gospel according to the Marcionites. READ THE PASSAGE ABOVE AND GET THE COBWEBS OUT OF YOUR MIND! Yes WE don't read Galatians 2 that way but the author is clearly saying the Marcionites did. So we can be absolutely certain that the Marcionite gospel was not according to Luke or had anything to do with Paul commissioning a second person to write on his behalf. When he says 'my Gospel' he means 'the gospel I wrote' according to the Marcionite because of the context of Galatians 2 and the discussion in Adv Marc 4.

This is underscored by the fact that the author of Adv Marc 4 (Irenaeus) points to Galatians 2:5 as a way of saying 'hey you Marcionites if you read the text that way LOOK he says he was subject to the authorities at Jerusalem.' Let's start with that.
Nope... that's not it, is it? No mention of Justin.

Plugging the quote into Google yields your blog.

http://stephanhuller.blogspot.com/2014/ ... where.html

On the blog, Evans is quoted, but the name of Evans is not given.

I give up for now.
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
Secret Alias
Posts: 18922
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: The Results of Previous Studies of Marcion Are Worthless

Post by Secret Alias »

It's more than Evans. Here's Dunn:
Justin, Dialogue with Trypho 78.10, reports this transfer of Damascus from Arabia to Syrophoenicia, but without indicating that it happened when Syria was split into two. Herodian 2.7.4 reports that Pescennius Niger was governor of the whole province in 193. It was soon after this that Septimius Severus divided Syria into Syria Coele and Syria Phoenicia. See Birley (1988: 114). https://books.google.com/books?id=UL7CR ... 22&f=false
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8994
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: The Results of Previous Studies of Marcion Are Worthless

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Peter Kirby wrote:
Secret Alias wrote:cf Evans evidence for manipulation of Justin's works c. 196 CE i.e. the time of Irenaeus
Sometimes I'd (sort of) like to follow these references, but it'd be easier with something more to go on.

....

Nope... that's not it, is it? No mention of Justin.

Plugging the quote into Google yields your blog.

http://stephanhuller.blogspot.com/2014/ ... where.html

On the blog, Evans is quoted, but the name of Evans is not given.

I give up for now.
I am guessing — as perhaps you are, as well — that this is Ernest Evans, a recent translator of Tertullian's Against Marcion: http://tertullian.org/articles/evans_ma ... 0index.htm, among other works. But this guess is not helping me so far to locate any statement concerning the manipulation of Justin's works circa 196.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ
Secret Alias
Posts: 18922
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: The Results of Previous Studies of Marcion Are Worthless

Post by Secret Alias »

Craig Evans
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
Posts: 18922
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: The Results of Previous Studies of Marcion Are Worthless

Post by Secret Alias »

Williams comments on the passage in Justin:

"And that selfsame power, as being sinful and wicked, he rightly calls Samaria in parable. Now that Damascus did and does belong to the land of Arabia, even though it is now allotted to that which is called Syrophoenicia,5 not even any of you can deny. So that it would be well, Gentlemen, if you were to learn the things that you do not understand from them who have received grace from God, even us Christians, to prop up your own doctrines, and do despite to those of God.”6

6 This clause is an addition by a copyist, for the "allotment" was made by Septimius Severus in a.d. 194 https://books.google.com/books?id=6m43A ... 22&f=false
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
Posts: 18922
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: The Results of Previous Studies of Marcion Are Worthless

Post by Secret Alias »

Others identify the use of "Gospels" and "the gospel" in Justin as a later copyists alteration - https://books.google.com/books?id=srjYf ... 22&f=false
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 8892
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: The Results of Previous Studies of Marcion Are Worthless

Post by MrMacSon »

Secret Alias wrote:Williams comments on the passage in Justin:

"And that selfsame power, as being sinful and wicked, he rightly calls Samaria in parable. Now that Damascus did and does belong to the land of Arabia, even though it is now allotted to that which is called Syrophoenicia,5 not even any of you can deny. So that it would be well, Gentlemen, if you were to learn the things that you do not understand from them who have received grace from God, even us Christians, to prop up your own doctrines, and do despite to those of God.”6
6 5 This clause is an addition by a copyist, for the "allotment" was made by Septimius Severus in a.d. 194 https://books.google.com/books?id=6m43A ... 22&f=false
Post Reply