The Gospels Were Not Published Until c.150

[Peter Kirby]

Gday Peter Kirby

Hey, sorry about getting off on the wrong foot and all that.

Thank you for your apology
I accept it unreservedly, and respect you for it.

I hope you will find time to join in discussion here, particularly about how an Argument from Silence can be valid IF :

• the author should know the information
• the author has a motive to mention it.

There is also various positive evidence to consider, such as Papias -> Justin -> Irenaeus (G.Mark from Peter), and the comments of Aristides.


Regards,

Kapyong

Sure. It's a nice topic, and it would be better to approach it from a fresh angle I think.

Cheers. And much respect to you also!

Good things don't last, apparently.

[Secret Alias]

Before examining the evidence up close, it is hard to determine those odds. But here are some reasons for thinking that early Christian writers had texts in hand that we no longer possess.

Bravo Ben. It is amazing that Bernard can't see that the only reason he and others ASSUME that four gospels were constantly being used from the time of the apostles is that it is convenient for the pursuit of knowledge. It's like being married and assuming that all married couples are happy - useful for marriage and staying in marriage but not much else. There are many, many things we can never know. Sad but true.

[Bernard Muller]

It is certain there were other gospels around but I doubt they were existing before the Synoptics.
And it is also likely, these other gospels had added material in them which are not found in the "canonical" gospels.
The best evidence are gLuke and gMatthew. They were obviously added on with L and M material above what shows in gMark.
So I think the other gospels would follow the same pattern, as for the gospel of Peter, for example, and the gospel of Thomas also (not truly a gospel but a collection of sayings).
Also some elements might have been added to a few copies of the "canonical" gospels, but then not recopied later, but still witnessed by someone like Justin.
Furthermore, there were also collections of sayings and even parables which were not all in the "canonical" gospels. About "new" parables Papias is a witness of it (perhaps he invented them himself) and also in gThomas.
Some of these (likely invented) sayings were quoted by "Barnabas" and in 2 Clement.
For the record, I think all parables of Jesus were invented, starting be the ones in gMark.
So I am not surprised that some of the texts I listed contain both "canonical" material and some other material.
I am also on record that the gospel in the Didache" was not gMatthew, but a subset of it, that is a gospel which contained elements of gMatthew, but is not gMatthew. So the existence of early other gospels is not something I am just acknowledging now.

Regardless, it does not make any difference if the authors on my list drew from the "canonical" gospels or from other gospels which drew some of their elements from the "canonical" ones.
Directly or indirectly, these authors on my list drew from the canonical gospel. And the author of these other gospels knew about the canonicals, so they were not hidden.
Except of course if there were other gospels existing before the Synoptics, then my remarks would be defeated. But the evidence for that is lacking.

Cordially, Bernard

[Bernard Muller]

to MrMacSon,

5. The Egerton Gospel (British Library Egerton Papyrus 2) refers to a collection of three papyrus fragments of a codex of a previously unknown gospel, found in Egypt and sold to the British Museum in 1934; the physical fragments are now dated to the very end of the 2nd century CE.

Yes, I am wrong on that one. I should have done my homework. Instead I picked up the dating from Kirby website.
Anyway, the Egerton gospel is a good example where canonical material is merged with non canonical gospel-like material.

Cordially, Bernard

[Peter Kirby]

Then Peter Kirby dumped on us a 13 year old thread that preached his Gospel of the Holy Argument from Silence.

That sounds like "abuse."

A thread in which he called members who disagreed with him idiots and morons and stupid - the very epitome of the ad-hominem attack.

What exactly happened there, you've never actually stated in a completely accurate way.

A thread which showed he was wrong 13 years ago.

So you say.

Peter Kirby asked us to read the thread and report on any conclusions.

Lie.

So I did just that - read the thread and reported the conclusion (with a thread summary) - the conclusion that his argument failed because he chose a bad comparand.

This actually happened.

But Peter Kirby did not admit his error.

So you say.

Instead he lied that it was not really a comparison at all, just to avoid admitting his mistake.

Wrong.

Then accused me of poisoning the discussion for daring to point out his failure (can't seem to find that comment now, but it was there yesterday.)

Wrong.

Then said - ' I didn't ask you to summarise the thread ' -

That actually happened.

as if we are only expected to do what Peter Kirby asks.

Wrong.

This was simply a slap in the face for daring to show he was wrong.

Wrong.

He abused us as being to too stupid to understand his Gospel of the Holy Argument from Silence - a Gospel shown wrong many years ago. Another slap in the face.

Wrong.

Peter Kirby said ' who cares ? ' after HE brought it up. Another slap.

Misleading.

Peter Kirby ridiculed us for only having an AfS, continuing to ignore the positive evidence we keep bringing up. Slap.

Nothing more than a complete lie.

And the posters who dared to criticise his argument - Peter Kirby simply rejected them as 'dismissive summary statements from random idiots' and 'random whoevers'.

Misleading. I was referring to an argument based on the authority of the thread 'outcome'.

Frankly, the behaviour of the abusers here has been appalling - the level of insults and personal abuse and bullying is shocking. It's been like arguing with teenagers.

But worse - you guys openly make false statements, then simply ignore or deny it outright. Do you really think it's OK to lie to stupid mythicists ? Have you no personal standards ? I grew out of denying my mistakes decades ago. Don't you care that you lied in print ?

I do agree with Peter Kirby on one issue - it's not really mythicists he despises. It's actually all the morons and the idiots and the stupid children playing in sand-pits who wet their pants when challenged. It seems clear where the toxic attitude prevalent here comes from - Peter Kirby.

Because what I have seen here is that Peter Kirby abuses his powerful intellect to walk all over normal people - the morons and idiots of everyday life, the unter-menschen without his brains. Spraying his superiority in people's faces, behaving like an arrogant egg-head over-inflated with his own sense of self-importance.

Peter Kirby may well be a scholar, but he is certainly no gentleman.
He gives a black eye to the reputation of all intelligent people.

Pull your socks up Peter Kirby !

I'm sorry. It's very distracting to be provoked like this, especially after I thought we had both agreed to put it behind us. It takes up a lot of time, even just to dash off an ugly post like this one, only just barely replying to this character assassination.

You're temporarily banned.

[ebion]

At the risk of necroposting (to someone who was banned!), the links to http://kapyong.info/ClementRome.html are dead, and there's a good analysis in there, one I had not seen before, so I've dug it out of archive.org and will post it here, although the formatting may be bad.

Clement of Rome's Epistle



Clement of Rome is the probable author of an epistle to the Corinthians, usually dated to c.96. This epistle quotes various works, and is often claimed to quote the Gospels.

The Ante-Nicene Fathers of the Church edition of this work used for this analysis can be found here:

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-05.htm

There are a total of 261 footnotes in this work, here below I list the footnotes and detail all possible Gospel references - some references are relevant to both OT and NT and are given in both sections.

Possible Gospel (and Acts) references

There are five possible references or allusions to the Gospels, (and one to Acts), and 2 uses of the word "Gospel" in an informal way, Clement never directly mentions the formal Gospels and does not state or imply he is quoting scripture for the words of Jesus - rather he seems to be refering to the Sayings Tradition with forms such as "remember the words of the Lord" :

Ch. 13 : ... the words of the Lord Jesus which He spake, teaching us meekness and long-suffering. For thus He spoke: "Be ye merciful, that ye may obtain mercy; forgive, that it may be forgiven to you ; as ye do, so shall it be done unto you; as ye judge, so shall ye be judged; as ye are kind, so shall kindness be shown to you; with what measure ye mete, with the same it shall be measured to you. "

55 Comp. Matt. vi. 12-15, vii. 2; Luke vi. 36-38.

Mt 6:12 and forgive us our debts, as we ourselves have forgiven our debtors. 6:13 And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. 6:14 "For if you forgive others their sins, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 6:15 But if you do not forgive others, your Father will not forgive you your sins.

Lk 6:36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. 6:37 "Do not judge, and you will not be judged; do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven. 6:38 Give, and it will be given to you: a good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be poured into your lap. For the measure you use will be the measure you receive."

This is not a direct quote by Clement, but shows some similarity to the Gospel wording.



Ch. 15 : For saith in a certain place, "This people honoureth Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me."

59 Isa. xxix. 13; Matt. xv. 8; Mark vii. 6.

Mt 15:7 Hypocrites! Isaiah prophesied correctly about you when he said, 15:8 'This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me,

Mk 7:6 He said to them, "Isaiah prophesied correctly about you hypocrites, as it is written: 'This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

This is a quote from Isaiah, also found in the Gospels.




Ch. 24 : The sower goes forth, and casts it into the ground; and the seed being thus scattered, though dry and naked when it fell upon the earth, is gradually dissolved

102 Comp. Luke viii. 5.

Lk 8:5 “A sower went out to sow his seed. And as he sowed, some fell along the path and was trampled on, and the birds of the sky devoured it. 8:6 Other seed fell on rock, and when it came up, it withered because it had no moisture. 8:7 Other seed fell among the thorns, and they grew up with it and choked it. "

This is not a direct quote by Clement, but shows loose similarities with the Gospel story.



Ch. 27 : When and as He pleases He will do all things, and none of the things determined by Him shall pass away

111 Comp. Matt. xxiv. 35.

Mt 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away

This is not a direct quote by Clement, but shows some similarity to the Gospel phrase.



Ch. 46 : Remember the words of our Lord Jesus, for he said, "Woe to that man, it were better for him that he had never been born, than that he should cast a stumbling-block before one of my elect. Yea, it were better for him that a millstone should be hung about, and he should be sunk in the depths of the sea, than that he should cast a stumbling-block before one of my little ones."

210 Comp. Matt. xviii. 6, xxvi. 24; Mark ix. 42; Luke xvii. 2.

Mt 18:6 But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a huge millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

Mt 26:24 The Son of Man will go as it is written about him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would be better for him if he had never been born.

Mk 9:42 If anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a huge millstone tied around his neck and to be thrown into the sea.

Lk 17:2 It would be better for him to have a millstone tied around his neck and be thrown into the sea than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin.

This is not a direct quote by Clement, but shows definite similarity to the Gospels.



Ch. 2 : and were more willing to give than to receive.

6 Acts xx. 35.

Acts 20:35 ... and remember the words of the Lord Jesus that he himself said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.'"

This small frgament is not a direct quote by Clement, but shows some similarity to Act, possibly from a common source, as Acts is probably later than the epistle.



Ch. 42 : The apostles have preached the Gospel to us from the Lord Jesus Christ;

Ch. 47 : Take up the epistle of the blessed Apostle Paul. What did he write to you at the time when the Gospel first began to be preached.

Here, Clement apparently uses the term "the Gospel" in its simple meaning of good news (or teachings), but he specifically refers to an "epistle " of Paul.


Other NT references

5 Eph. v. 21; 1 Pet. v. 5. 8 1 Pet. ii. 17. 10 Tit. iii. 1. 15 Literally, "Christ;" comp. 2 Cor. i. 21, Eph. iv. 20.

35 Gen. vii.; 1 Pet. iii. 20; 2 Pet. ii. 5. 43 Gen. v. 24; Heb. xi. 5. Literally, "and his death was not found."

44 Isa. xli. 8; 2 Chron. xx. 7; Judith viii. 19; James ii. 23. 47 Gen. xv. 5, 6; Rom. iv. 3. 48 Gen. xxi. 22; Heb. xi. 17.

49 Gen. xix.; comp. 2 Pet. ii. 6-9. 52 Josh. ii.; Heb. xi. 31. 54 Jer. ix. 23, 24; 1 Cor. i. 31; 2 Cor. x. 17.

71 Heb. xi. 37. 75 Num. xii. 7; Heb. iii. 2.

85 Literally, "Becoming partakers of many great and glorious deeds, let us return to the aim of peace delivered to us from the beginning." Comp. Heb. xii. 1.

90 Comp. Heb. xiii. 17; 1 Thess. v. 12, 13. 93 Comp. 1 Tim. v. 21. 99 Hab. ii. 3; Heb. x. 37.

101 Comp. 1 Cor. xv. 20; Col. i. 18. 108 Comp. Tit. i. 2; Heb. vi. 18. 121 Prov. iii. 34; James iv. 6; 1 Pet. v. 5.

125 Comp. James ii. 21. 131 Comp. Rom. ix. 5. 139 Isa. xl. 10, lxii. 11; Rev. xxii. 12. 143 1 Cor. ii. 9.

147 Rom. i. 32. 155 Heb. i. 3, 4. 156 Ps. civ. 4; Heb. i. 7. 158 Ps. ii. 7, 8; Heb. i. 5. 159 Ps. cx. i; Heb. i. 13.

162 1 Cor. xii. 12, etc. 175 Literally, "to His will." [Comp. Rom. xv. 15, 16, Greek.] 185 Num. xii. 10; Heb. iii. 5.
205 Or, "war." Comp. James iv. 1. 206 Comp. Eph. iv. 4-6. 207 Rom. xvii. 5.

211 Literally, "in the beginning of the Gospel." [Comp. Philipp. iv. 15.] 213 1 Cor. iii. 13, etc.

220 James v. 20; 1 Pet. iv. 8. 221 Comp. 1 Cor. xiii. 4, etc. 242 Ps. xxiv 1; 1 Cor. x. 26, 28.

243 Literally, "and having received their prices, fed others."[Comp. Rom. xvi. 3, 4, and Phil. ii. 30.]

249 Prov. iii. 12; Heb. xii. 6. 258 Comp. Tit. ii. 14.


OT references

11 Prov. vii. 3. 13 Deut. xxxii. 15. 16 Wisd. ii. 24. 17 Gen. iv. 3-8. 18 Gen. xxvii. 41, etc. 19 Gen. xxxvii.

20 Ex. ii. 14. 21 Num. xii. 14, 15. [In our copies of the Septuagint this is not affirmed of Aaron.]

22 Num. xvi. 33. 23 1 Kings xviii. 8, etc. 33 Gen. ii. 23. 35 Gen. vii.; 1 Pet. iii. 20; 2 Pet. ii. 5. 36 Jonah iii.

37 Ezek. xxxiii. 11. 38 Ezek. xviii. 11. 39 Comp. Isa. i. 18. 41 Isa. i. 16-20.

43 Gen. v. 24; Heb. xi. 5. Literally, "and his death was not found."

44 Isa. xli. 8; 2 Chron. xx. 7; Judith viii. 19; James ii. 23. 45 Gen. xii. 1-3. 46 Gen. xiii. 14-16.

47 Gen. xv. 5, 6; Rom. iv. 3. 48 Gen. xxi. 22; Heb. xi. 17. 49 Gen. xix.; comp. 2 Pet. ii. 6-9.

52 Josh. ii.; Heb. xi. 31. 54 Jer. ix. 23, 24; 1 Cor. i. 31; 2 Cor. x. 17. 56 Isa. lxvi. 2. 57 Prov. ii. 21, 22.

58 Ps. xxxvii. 35-37. "Remnant" probably refers either to the memory or posterity of the righteous.

59 Isa. xxix. 13; Matt. xv. 8; Mark vii. 6. 60 Ps. lxii. 4. 61 Ps. lxxviii. 36, 37. 62 Ps. xxxi. 18. 64 Ps. xii. 3-5.

69 Isa. liii. The reader will observe how often the text of the Septuagint, here quoted, differs from the Hebrew as represented by our authorized English version.

70 Ps. xxii. 6-8. 71 Heb. xi. 37. 72 Gen. xviii. 27. 73 Job i. 1. 74 Job xiv. 4, 5. [Septuagint.]

75 Num. xii. 7; Heb. iii. 2. 77 Ex. iii. 11, iv. 10. 80 Ps. lxxxix. 21. 84 Ps. li. 1-17. 87 Job xxxviii. 11.

89 Prov. xx. 27. 95 Ps. xxxiv. 11-17. 96 Ps. xxxii. 10. 99 Hab. ii. 3; Heb. x. 37. 100 Mal. iii. 1.

105 Ps. xxviii. 7, or some apocryphal book. 106 Comp. Ps. iii. 6. 107 Job xix. 25, 26.

110 Wisd. xii. 12, xi. 22. 113 Ps. xix. 1-3. 115 Ps. cxxxix. 7-10. 118 Deut. xxxii. 8, 9.

119 Formed apparently from Num. xviii. 27 and 2 Chron. xxxi. 14. Literally, the closing words are, "the holy of holies."

121 Prov. iii. 34; James iv. 6; 1 Pet. v. 5. 122 Job xi. 2, 3. The translation is doubtful. [But see Septuagint.]

127 Gen. xxii. 132 Gen. xxii. 17, xxviii. 4. 135 Gen. i. 26, 27. 136 Gen. i. 28. 139 Isa. xl. 10, lxii. 11; Rev. xxii. 12.

141 Dan. vii. 10. 142 Isa. vi. 3.

151 Ps. l. 16-23. The reader will observe how the Septuagint followed by Clement differs from the Hebrew.

156 Ps. civ. 4; Heb. i. 7. 158 Ps. ii. 7, 8; Heb. i. 5. 159 Ps. cx. i; Heb. i. 13. 168 Comp. Ps. cxxxix. 15.

173 Job iv. 16-18, xv. 15, iv. 19-21, v. 1-5.

184 Isa. lx. 17, Sept.; but the text is here altered by Clement. The LXX. have "I will give thy rulers in peace, and thy overseers in righteousness."

185 Num. xii. 10; Heb. iii. 5. 187 See Num. xvii. 195 Dan. vi. 16. 196 Dan. iii. 20. 204 Ps. xviii. 25, 26.

219 Ps. cxviii. 19, 20. 225 Isa xxvi. 20. 226 Ps. xxxii. 1, 2. 229 Num. xvi. 230 Ex. xiv. 231 Ps. lxix. 31,32.

233 Ps. 1. 14,15. 234 Ps. li, 17. 235 Ex. xxxii. 7, etc.; Deut. ix.12, etc. 236 Ex. xxxii. 9, etc. 237 Ex. xxxii. 32.

242 Ps. xxiv 1; 1 Cor. x. 26, 28. 244 Judith viii. 30. 245 Esther vii., viii. 248 Ps. cxviii. 18.

249 Prov. iii. 12; Heb. xii. 6. 250 Ps. cxli. 5. 253 Job v. 17-26.

256 Prov. i. 23-31. [Often cited by this name in primitive writers.]


Other references

50 So Joseph, Antiq., i. 11, 4; Irenaeus, Adv. Haer., iv. 31.

103 This fable respecting the phoenix is mentioned by Herodotus (ii. 73) and by Pliny (Nat. Hist., x. 2.) and is used as above by Tertullian (De Resurr., §13) and by others of the Fathers.

222 [Comp. Irenaeus, v. 1; also Mathetes, Ep. to Diognetus, cap. ix.]



Uncertain references

Ch. 5 : Paul also obtained the reward of patient endurance, after being seven times thrown into captivity

27 Seven imprisonments of St. Paul are not referred to in Scripture.



40 These words are not found in Scripture, though they are quoted again by Clem. Alex. (Paedag., i. 10) as from Ezekiel.



Ch. 17 : And again he said, "I am but as the smoke of a pot."

78 This is not found in Scripture. [They were probably in Clement's version. Comp. Ps. cxix. 83.]



Ch. 23 : Far from us be that which is written, "Wretched are they who are of a double mind, and of a doubting heart; who say, These things we have heard even in the times of our fathers; but, behold, we have grown old, and none of them has happened unto us."

98 Some regard these words as taken from an apocryphal book, others as derived from a fusion of James i. 8 and 2 Pet. iii. 3, 4.



Ch. 46 : since it is written, "Cleave to the holy, for those that cleave to them shall be made holy."

201 Not found in Scripture.



by Kapyong



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[ebion]

Gday Secret Alias and all

At the risk if necroposting, the links to http://kapyong.info/ChristianTable.html are dead, and there's a good analysis in there, one I had not seen before, so I've dug it out of archive.org and have posted it in another thread. Here's the url:
https://web.archive.org/web/20161103071 ... Table.html