fourth century inquisition

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Leucius Charinus
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fourth century inquisition

Post by Leucius Charinus »

Nick Peters wrote:
Leucius Charinus wrote:
Nick Peters wrote: ...I find Christ-mythers to be amusing ....
Acts of John wrote:
.... Sometimes when I meant to touch him [Jesus], I met with a material and solid body;
but at other times when I felt him, his substance was immaterial and incorporeal, as if it did not exist at all ...

And I often wished, as I walked with him, to see his footprint, whether it appeared on the ground
(for I saw him as it were raised up from the earth), and I never saw it
. (§ 93)
Nick Peters wrote: ......., although granted after a few days they become tiresome.
Isn't it marvellous how the gnostic and docetic heretics were pronounced upon in very unfavourable terms by the canonical "believers"?
Oh. I must be mistaken. I thought we were supposed to talk about how we know a work is a forgery and discuss our methods of historiography and determining authorship.
But that is precisely why I mentioned the Acts of John, with it's docetic (mythical and/or fictional) overtones. The orthodox in antiquity asserted this to be a gross forgery by an unknown heretic, who was denounced (without being named or dated). There are some people, including myself, who see that those whom the orthodox referred to as "docetists" (See the Letters of John) were those who originally claimed that Jesus was a total myth. [The author of the Acts of John could not find any footprints of the Jesus character]. These original proponents of the "Mythical Jesus" are characterised as "refusing to confess that Jesus had appeared in the flesh" (that is, they refused to confess that Jesus had actually appeared in history).
Looks like you're more concerned with talking about personal feelings on historical issues.
You made the personalised comment about "tiresomeness", not I. I had put forward the historical issue of the "Acts of John" and indeed the "Letters of John" to substantiate attestation to a belief in antiquity that there were definitely people about who refused to confess that Jesus had physically appeared on planet Earth.

But then of course, by at least the mid 4th century, along came the inquisition of "beliefs", during which "numbers without end" were tortured and executed for their religious beliefs by the 4th century Christian regime. Heresy laws and inquisitions continued for another thousand years before they were ameliorated into the national and state "Blasphemy Laws". These still exist under Islam, and provide a graphic example of how it was like under the Christian regime a few hundred years ago.




.
A "cobbler of fables" [Augustine]; "Leucius is the disciple of the devil" [Decretum Gelasianum]; and his books "should be utterly swept away and burned" [Pope Leo I]; they are the "source and mother of all heresy" [Photius]
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stephan happy huller
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Re: Nailed: 10 Christian myths that show Jesus never existed

Post by stephan happy huller »

by at least the mid 4th century, along came the inquisition of "beliefs", during which "numbers without end" were tortured and executed for their religious beliefs by the 4th century Christian regime.
Fuck off with this nonsense. Where do you get this distortion of evidence. People were always being brutalized by the Roman government. The idea that 'suddenly' in the fourth century Christians were being forced to believe in the orthodox tradition is sheer nonsense. Why do you continue with this idiocy? Christians claim that the most brutal period in their history was under Diocletian - Era of the Martyrs (Latin: anno martyrum or AM), also known as the Diocletian era (Latin: anno Diocletiani). Just go away.
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: Nailed: 10 Christian myths that show Jesus never existed

Post by Leucius Charinus »

stephan happy huller wrote:
by at least the mid 4th century, along came the inquisition of "beliefs", during which "numbers without end" were tortured and executed for their religious beliefs by the 4th century Christian regime.
Fuck off with this nonsense. Where do you get this distortion of evidence.

Ammianus Marcellinus (Book 19,CH 7)
AM wrote:
1. But amid these causes of anxiety, as if in accordance with old-established custom,
instead of the signal for civil war, the trumpet sounded groundless charges of treason,
and a secretary, whom we shall often have to speak of, named Paulus,
was sent to inquire into these charges.
He was a man skilful in all the contrivances of cruelty,
making gain and profit of tortures and executions,
as a master of gladiators does of his fatal games.

2. For as he was firm and resolute in his purpose of |208 injuring people,
he did not abstain even from theft, and invented all kinds of causes
for the destruction of innocent men, while engaged in this miserable campaign.

3. A slight and trivial circumstance afforded infinite material for extending his investigations.
There is a town called Abydum in the most remote corner of the Egyptian Thebais,
where an oracle of the god, known in that region by the name of Besa,
had formerly enjoyed some celebrity for its prophecies, and had sacred rites performed
at it with all the ceremonies anciently in use in the neighbouring districts.

4. Some used to go themselves to consult this oracle,
some to send by others documents containing their wishes,
and with prayers couched in explicit language inquired the will of the deities;
and the paper or parchment on which their wants were written,
after the answer had been given, was sometimes left in the temple.

Among those who were persecuted, tortured and executed were those who had consulted
the oracle at Abydum - on account of their religious beliefs - and did so in writing. These
documents were pounced upon the agent of the Christian emperor as a sure evidence that
these people were violating the majesty of the Christian Emperor (Constantius), and they
were then summoned, or hauled before the Emperor's agent.


5. Some of these were spitefully sent to the emperor, and he, narrow minded as he was,
though often deaf to other matters of serious consequence, had, as the proverb says,
a soft place in his ear for this kind of information; and being of a suspicious and petty temper,
became full of gall and fury; and immediately ordered Paulus to repair with all speed to the East,
giving him authority, as to a chief of great eminence and experience, to try all the causes as he pleased.

6. And Modestus also, at that time count of the East, a man well suited for such a business,
was joined with him in this commission. For Hermogenes of Pontus, at that time prefect of the praetorium,
was passed over as of too gentle a disposition.

7. Paulus proceeded, as he was ordered, full of deadly eagerness and rage; inviting all kinds of calumnies,
so that numbers from every part of the empire were brought before him, noble and low born alike;
some of whom were condemned to imprisonment, others to instant death
.

8. The city which was chosen to witness these fatal scenes was Scythopolis in Palestine,
which for two reasons seemed the most suitable of all places; first, because it was little frequented
and secondly, because it was halfway between Antioch and Alexandria,
from which city many of those brought before this tribunal came
.
This is the source for the entry in Vlasis Rassias, Demolish Them! ....


359 CE: In Skythopolis, Syria, the Christians organize
the first death camps for the torture and executions
of the arrested non-Christians from all around the empire.


9. One of the first persons accused was Simplicius, the son of Philip;
a man who, after having been prefect and consul, was now impeached on the ground
that he was said to have consulted the oracle how to obtain the empire.
He was sentenced to the torture by the express command of the emperor,
who in these cases never erred on the side of mercy;
but by some special fate he was saved from it,
and with uninjured body was condemned to distant banishment.

10. The next victim was Parnasius, who had been prefect of Egypt, a man of simple manners,
but now in danger of being condemned to death, and glad to escape with exile;
because long ago he had been heard to say that when he left Patrae in Achaia, the place of his birth,
with the view of procuring some high office, he had in a dream seen himself
conducted on his road by several figures in tragic robes.

11. The next was Andronicus, subsequently celebrated for his liberal accomplishments and his poetry;
he was brought before the court without having given any real ground for suspicion of any kind,
and defended himself so vigorously that he was acquitted.

12. There was also Demetrius, surnamed Chytras, a philosopher, of great age, but still firm in mind and body;
he, when charged with having frequently offered sacrifices in the temple of his oracle, could not deny it;
but affirmed that, for the sake of propitiating the deity, he had constantly done so from his early youth,
and not with any idea of aiming at any higher fortune by his questions;
nor had he known any one who had aimed at such.
And though he was long on the rack he supported it with great constancy,
never varying in his statement, till at length he was acquitted
and allowed to retire to Alexandria, where he was born.

13. These and a few others, justice, coming to the aid of truth, delivered from their imminent dangers.


But as accusations extended more widely, involving numbers without end
in their snares, many perished; some with their bodies mangled on the rack;
others were condemned to death and confiscation of their goods; while Paulus
kept on inventing groundless accusations, as if he had a store of lies on which to draw,
and suggesting various pretences for injuring people, so that on his nod, it may he said,
the safety of every one in the place depended.


14. For if any one wore on his neck a charm against the quartan ague or any other disease,
or if by any information laid by his ill-wishers
he was accused of having passed by a sepulchre at nightfall,
and therefore of being a sorcerer, and one who dealt in the horrors of tombs
and the vain mockeries of the shades which haunt them,
he was found guilty and condemned to death.

15. And the affairs went on as if people had been consulting Claros,
or the oaks at Dodona, or the Delphic oracles of old fame,
with a view to the destruction of the emperor.
Does anyone really think that this Tribunal Inquisition (or any that followed in the centuries after it)
was protecting an Historical Jesus who stood under the wings of the Emperors' (and later the Popes') majesty?
A "cobbler of fables" [Augustine]; "Leucius is the disciple of the devil" [Decretum Gelasianum]; and his books "should be utterly swept away and burned" [Pope Leo I]; they are the "source and mother of all heresy" [Photius]
avi
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Re: Nailed: 10 Christian myths that show Jesus never existed

Post by avi »

Thank you very much for these extensive quotes from Ammianus Marcellinus, Pete, nice job.

Here are four names. I have not read anything by any of them, neither in Greek (way beyond me) nor English translation. Some of them exist only in Latin, not Greek, but I suspect they are translations, rather than copies of original texts, since most of these chaps wrote in Greek:
Eunapius
Zosimus
Photius
Dixippus

My question, having not yet read anything by any of them, myself, is whether or not you have had a chance to peruse or search the text of any of these Greek historians, seeking information that could assist in addressing this question of presumed historicity.

Do any of these four authors reference the writings of Flavius Josephus, Philo of Alexandria, Irenaeus of Lugdunum, Paul of Tarsus, Justin Martyr, or Origen Adamantius?
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Peter Kirby
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Re: fourth century inquisition

Post by Peter Kirby »

For the record, the historicity of some persecutions against heretics in the fourth century is not really in question, and assigning them more or less significance than the persecutions against Christians in the third and early fourth century seems to me to be subjective.
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stephan happy huller
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Re: fourth century inquisition

Post by stephan happy huller »

My point was to say - the ancient world was cruel. There is no point applying our standards to those times. I have been to Africa and many other parts of the so-called third world and I have always felt they share a very similar world view - or at least the potential for it. Life is cheap. If someone is caught stealing it is common in parts of Africa for the people in the village to tie him up, douse him with gasoline and set him on fire. It is relatively common for people driving in Nairobi to find themselves attacked by robbers while driving home. They come out from the bushes, throw a large rock through the windshield and attempt to kill the occupants. It's just life for them. My point again was to say, we shouldn't impose our standards on the ancient world.
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