The Pastorals Are Fake - But What Are Their Influences?

[Secret Alias]

I was wondering last night if the theology of the Pastorals has been identified? Is there Jewish influence on the Pastoral writer? What about Greek philosophy? What do we know about him?

[andrewcriddle]

I was wondering last night if the theology of the Pastorals has been identified? Is there Jewish influence on the Pastoral writer? What about Greek philosophy? What do we know about him?

Some of the ideas about church order. e.g. the importance of presbyters probably involve Jewish influence. The theology seems largely based on Paul. Ephesians may be a better example of Pauline theology modified by Greek philosophy.

Andrew Criddle

[Secret Alias]

Thank you Andrew. I don't really have a better answer. But I wonder (as an amateur psychologist) whether your contention that Paul was a major influence on the letters might be conditioned by a pre-existent understanding on your part on what Paul said. Did the Marcionite Paul for instance resemble the Pastoral letters? Probably not. Why else would the letters have to forged in the first place if they were merely 'already saying' what Paul believed? So my question is - if there is Jewish influence on the Pastorals what has been written about it? Thanks though for the quick response. Would be interested to hear more about Ephesians being influenced by Greek philosophy.

[andrewcriddle]

Thank you Andrew. I don't really have a better answer. But I wonder (as an amateur psychologist) whether your contention that Paul was a major influence on the letters might be conditioned by a pre-existent understanding on your part on what Paul said. Did the Marcionite Paul for instance resemble the Pastoral letters? Probably not. Why else would the letters have to forged in the first place if they were merely 'already saying' what Paul believed? So my question is - if there is Jewish influence on the Pastorals what has been written about it? Thanks though for the quick response. Would be interested to hear more about Ephesians being influenced by Greek philosophy.

See for example the heavenlies in Ephesians

Andrew Criddle

[Peter Kirby]

There is the famous wink in 1 Timothy 6:20 that make the Pastorals look like a reaction to Gnosis, falsely so-called.

Elsewhere, they support the establishment of bishops (1 Timothy 3).

Though maybe this is more about identity (2nd century catholic) than influence.

[andrewcriddle]

There is the famous wink in 1 Timothy 6:20 that make the Pastorals look like a reaction to Gnosis, falsely so-called.

There is a distinction between the developed 'Gnostic' systems of the mid 2nd century, which are IMO later than the Pastorals, and an earlier tendency to (over) emphasise esoteric knowledge.

The pastorals may be a response to the views of Cerinthus. but what Cerinthus taught is very unclear.

Andrew Criddle

[Peter Kirby]

If they are pseudepugraphical, they could also be written in the 2nd century and with knowledge of what was going on then. There seems to be a wide range of opinion on their date, from the 60s to the 140s.

The most radical suggestion that I have seen, which might be hard to disprove, is that Irenaeus is the author. I forget who suggested that, but AFAIK the writings of Irenaeus do set the firm upper bound on their date. And, in their earliest known use, they are powerful ammunition against the gnostics, in his hands.

The question is difficult, as you can find people arguing that Paul did write them after all, too.

[andrewcriddle]

If they are pseudepugraphical, they could also be written in the 2nd century and with knowledge of what was going on then. There seems to be a wide range of opinion on their date, from the 60s to the 140s.

The most radical suggestion that I have seen, which might be hard to disprove, is that Irenaeus is the author. I forget who suggested that, but AFAIK the writings of Irenaeus do set the firm upper bound on their date. And, in their earliest known use, they are powerful ammunition against the gnostics, in his hands.

The question is difficult, as you can find people arguing that Paul did write them after all, too.

IMO the letter of Polycarp (generally dated before Irenaeus) is closely linked to the Pastorals.

Either Polycarp knew the Pastorals (the great majority of scholars) or Polycarp was the author (Campenhausen and a few other scholars).

Andrew Criddle

[Secret Alias]

or the person who forged the Polycarp letter is the same one who wrote the Pastorals = Irenaeus.

[Ben C. Smith]

The question is difficult, as you can find people arguing that Paul did write them after all, too.

IIRC, your stylometer did not find much of an appreciable difference between the Pastorals and the so-called genuine epistles, right?