"The Simontic Problem". "Mark's" Negative Casting of Peter

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Re: "The Simontic Problem". "Mark's" Negative Casting of Peter

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Hakeem's comments from 2017 were exactly right.
Hakeem was a mental patient who escaped from a sanatorium in the Caribbean to wreak terror at this forum and its previous incarnation.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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Simon Gets Fired As Disciple And Replaced By Simon

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7OG4fCbdxM

Verse Definition of Disciple Success Fails Definition Commentary
3
14 And he appointed twelve, that they might be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,
15 and to have authority to cast out demons:
16 and Simon he surnamed Peter;
- - After Simon's appointment as apprentice disciple, his name is transferred to "Peter".
8
33 But he turning about, and seeing his disciples, rebuked Peter, and saith, Get thee behind me, Satan; for thou mindest not the things of God, but the things of men.
34 And he called unto him the multitude with his disciples, and said unto them, If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Deny yourself, take up your own cross and follow Jesus. - "Simon", presumably the most important target for the author, gets the most name manipulation, not just in quantity but also quality.
14
37 And he cometh, and findeth them sleeping, and saith unto Peter, Simon, sleepest thou? couldest thou not watch one hour?
- - Peter is asleep on The Job so his name is converted back to Simon.
14
71 But he began to curse, and to swear, I know not this man of whom ye speak.
72 And straightway the second time the cock crew. And Peter called to mind the word, how that Jesus said unto him, Before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice. And when he thought thereon, he wept.
- Peter denies Jesus 3 times. Via curse and oath! By denying Jesus and not himself, Peter will not be following Jesus to the cross. Note that the author is careful to show Peter failing all the main points of successful Disciple definition:
1. Denying yourself.
2. Taking up your own cross.
3. Following Jesus.
15
21 And they compel one passing by, Simon of Cyrene, coming from the country, the father of Alexander and Rufus, to go [with them], that he might bear his cross.
- - 1. The replacement Simon meets the definition of disciple success by taking Jesus' cross and following him.
2. The outsider replaces the insider.
3. The name, in typical Markan style, is presented in the reverse of what would be expected. "The father of" as opposed to "the son of".
4. "Cyrene" in Greek mythology is queenish and I think this is what the author was going for. All The Replacements for the major characters in GMark have a positive reference = Magdalene (High), Arimathea (Best disciple), Cyrene (Queen).


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Post by JoeWallack »

JW:
We can now add the following to my inventory:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=561&start=60#p105766

GMark Greek 1:16 Background = Calling of Simon/Peter to be Disciple GMark English GMark Greek 9:22 Background = Demon possession and Disciple failure GMark English GMark Greek 9:42 Background = Calling out bad Disciples GMark English Commentary
Note that the approximately same phrases, cast into the sea, share the subject of Discipleship to Jesus in neat order:
1) Calling of the Greeneric disciple Simon/Peter.
2) Illustration of Disciple failure.
3) Consequences of Disciple failure
ἀμφιβάλλοντας casting ἔβαλεν casts βέβληται cast
ἐν into καὶ and εἰς into -
τῇ the εἰς into τὴν the -
θαλάσσῃ sea ὕδατα waters θάλασσαν sea -

Stage 1 of "The Simontic Problem" = An Inventory of "Mark's" Negative Casting of Peter:

Major Negative Casting:
  • 1) 4:15 The Parable of the Sower specifically refers to Peter as in the category of Disciple Failure.

    2) 8:32 Peter is presented as the Opposition to the Passion.

    3) 14:30 Jesus predicts that Peter will Deny him Three times.

    4) 14:53-72 Peter Denies Jesus Three times.
Minor Negative Casting:
  • 1) 1:29-31 Sickness in Simon's house.

    2) 3:16 Jesus gives Simon an extra name, "Peter".

    3) 6:3 The name "Simon" is assigned to a brother of Jesus who is presented unfavorably.

    4) 14:1-9 A Simon is presented as a Leper.

    5) 14:37 Jesus demotes Peter by using his pre-Disciple name, "Simon" to address him.

    6) 14:34-42 Peter Fails to Watch out for Jesus.

    7) 14:72 Peter mourns the loss of his life for Denying Jesus.

    8) 15:21 Peter Simon is figuratively replaced as Leader of Jesus' followers.
Connected Verse Negative Casting:
  • 1) 1:16/9:22/9:42 Use of phrase "cast into sea" to connect Peter to Failed Disciple.

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Luukeey! Ya Got Sum Splainin Ta Do

Post by JoeWallack »

JW:
A common literary technique is to emphasize something by placing it at the end of some connected part of the writing. The clearest example of this in GMark is at the very end. No one in Jesus' supposed time was promoting his supposed resurrection. The rest of GMark is laced with such examples. An important one is The Permanent Failure of Peter. Compare to one "Luke's" editing:

GMark GLuke Commentary
14
53 And they led Jesus away to the high priest: and there come together with him all the chief priests and the elders and the scribes.
54 And Peter had followed him afar off, even within, into the court of the high priest; and he was sitting with the officers, and warming himself in the light [of the fire].
55 Now the chief priests and the whole council sought witness against Jesus to put him to death; and found it not.
56 For many bare false witness against him, and their witness agreed not together.
57 And there stood up certain, and bare false witness against him, saying,
58 We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and in three days I will build another made without hands.
59 And not even so did their witness agree together.
60 And the high priest stood up in the midst, and asked Jesus, saying, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?
61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and saith unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.
63 And the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What further need have we of witnesses?
64 Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be worthy of death.
65 And some began to spit on him, and to cover his face, and to buffet him, and to say unto him, Prophesy: and the officers received him with blows of their hands.
66 And as Peter was beneath in the court, there cometh one of the maids of the high priest;
67 and seeing Peter warming himself, she looked upon him, and saith, Thou also wast with the Nazarene, [even] Jesus.
68 But he denied, saying, I neither know, nor understand what thou sayest: and he went out into the porch; and the cock crew.
69 And the maid saw him, and began again to say to them that stood by, This is [one] of them.
70 But he again denied it. And after a little while again they that stood by said to Peter, of a truth thou art [one] of them; for thou art a Galilaean.
71 But he began to curse, and to swear, I know not this man of whom ye speak.
72 And straightway the second time the cock crew. And Peter called to mind the word, how that Jesus said unto him, Before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice. And when he thought thereon, he wept.
22
54 And they seized him, and led him [away], and brought him into the high priest`s house. But Peter followed afar off.
55 And when they had kindled a fire in the midst of the court, and had sat down together, Peter sat in the midst of them.
56 And a certain maid seeing him as he sat in the light [of the fire], and looking stedfastly upon him, said, This man also was with him.
57 But he denied, saying, Woman, I know him not.
58 And after a little while another saw him, and said, Thou also art [one] of them. But Peter said, Man, I am not.
59 And after the space of about one hour another confidently affirmed, saying, Of a truth this man also was with him; for he is a Galilaean.
60 But Peter said, Man, I know not what thou sayest. And immediately, while he yet spake, the cock crew.
61 And the Lord turned, and looked upon Peter. And Peter remembered the word of the Lord, how that he said unto him, Before the cock crow this day thou shalt deny me thrice.
62 And he went out, and wept bitterly.
63 And the men that held [Jesus] mocked him, and beat him.
64 And they blindfolded him, and asked him, saying, Prophesy: who is he that struck thee?
65 And many other things spake they against him, reviling him.
66 And as soon as it was day, the assembly of the elders of the people was gathered together, both chief priests and scribes; and they led him away into their council, saying,
67 If thou art the Christ, tell us. But he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe:
68 and if I ask [you], ye will not answer.
69 But from henceforth shall the Son of man be seated at the right hand of the power of God.
70 And they all said, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am.
71 And they said, What further need have we of witness? for we ourselves have heard from his own mouth.
Note that in the likely original, GMark, Jesus' supposed success is given first and then the story finishes by contrasting that with Peter's failure. GMatthew, the likely next Gospel, follows this religious order. "Luke" though flips the order so that the story ends with Jesus' supposed success and that is what is emphasized. As always, evidence that GMark was not merely first here, but first everywhere, as even though "Luke" did not want GMark's main point (Peter's permanent failure), there was nothing else to use as a source.


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Re: "The Simontic Problem". "Mark's" Negative Casting of Peter

Post by Charles Wilson »

Joe Wallack wrote:"Luke" did not want GMark's main point (Peter's permanent failure), there was nothing else to use as a source.
Most interesting quote, JW.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/artic ... literature

You may be on to something in regards to Luke and the Synoptic Basket of Knowledge. As far as Luke goes, he may have had nothing else to use as a Source. Using John, however, shows us that there was something else. The Chamber of the Hearth and the Chamber of the Flames have different Functions, one Holy where only Priestly and Royals may attend and they must STAND. If these Priestly Types need to sit or rest, they go into the Chamber of the Hearth to sit on terraced steps. This is not explicitly stated in the Synoptics or John. The behavior is discerned from the Texts.

Someone had access to other information but it probably wasn't Luke.

Thanx,

CW
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Sleep, Paulpies, Sleep

Post by JoeWallack »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:52 am
Giuseppe wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:22 am There is a very strange anomaly in Mark 15:41:
And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: it is enough, the hour is come; behold, the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. 42 Rise up, let us go; lo, he that betrayeth me is at hand.
Paul the Uncertain wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:47 am Even with modern conventions for explicit intraspeech stage directions, you can find awkward-for-silent-readers transitions like that, where the author trusts the director and performer to read the speech effectively. It can even be part of the fun to see what the company comes up with.
imho, some other translations are right

English Standard Version
And he came the third time and said to them, “Are you still sleeping and taking your rest? It is enough; the hour has come.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkUbeEjYnso

JW:

14:41
Word Greek/Transliteration Translation Morphology Commentary
2518 [e] Καθεύδετε Katheudete Are you sleeping V-PIA-2P Literally it's just "You are sleeping". The question form "are" at the start is an interpretation.
3588 [e] τὸ to - Art-ANS The definite article. In context Jesus is addressing Peter, John and James who are rePeatedly falling asleep at the formulaic disciple failure time. Adding the definite article here to ID the primary failures in the story would be well within this author's style.
3063 [e] λοιπὸν loipon still Adj-ANS λοιπὸν
Definition: something that remains
Usage: finally, from now on, henceforth, beyond that.
The word has a primary meaning of continuation. It's an adjective so it has no tense by itself. At this point we have a literary meaning of "You continue to sleep."
First grammatical problem = The tense of the connecting words are all present but the adjective has a future connotation. Possible assumptions for translation =
1. "Mark" has bad grammar. Translate with or without future component.
2. "Mark's" grammar is deliberate here and stylish. The present tense fits the surrounding context, continuing to sleep on the job, but the adjective with the future meaning continues "Mark's" primary theme that these 3 disciples will always be "asleep" on the job (permanent condemnation).
2532 [e] καὶ kai and Conj -
373 [e] ἀναπαύεσθε· anapaues the taking your rest. V-PIM-2P -
568 [e] ἀπέχει· apechei It is enough; V-PIA-3S ἀπέχει·
Definition: to hold back, keep off, to be away, be distant
Usage: I have in full, am far, it is enough.
The word has a primary meaning of distance. The following context gives a meaning of "change".
Second grammatical problem = Now we have a contradiction in that the word indicating a continuation is now part of a phrase referred to as a change.
2064 [e] ἦλθεν ēlthen has come V-AIA-3S -
3588 [e] ἡ hē the Art-NFS -
5610 [e] ὥρα, hōra hour; N-NFS -

I'll let KK interpret what my translation would be.


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Wrestling With Greco Tragedy. Reversal From Behind. Is GMark Greek Tragedy?

Post by JoeWallack »

JW:
The legendary Ben Smith (I think the best contributor that ever graced this unholy Forum) left us with the opinion that he thought GMark
intended to communicate that there was a post resurrection restoration (not just reunion) of the Dipsicles. He based this opinion on three
main points:
  • 1) 14:28 and claiming that "Mark's" Jesus' predictions always came true (Ben accepted though that it might be a forgery).

    2) Specific verses indicating Jesus' prediction of future success of the Disciples.

    3) Not getting to the point of dealing with all the evidence going The other Way.
To Ben's credit he did not cite the most common reason used to support a restoration, that it was already established as Christian Gospel.

As this Thread demonstrates GMark is overwhelmingly critical and discrediting of the Disciples in quality and quantity. I of course accept that GMark might still have some evidence that the intent was to show, imply or at least hint that the Disciples were restored but I never saw this in any of Ben's examples. Perhaps someone, anyone, Buehler, can post here what they think is the best verse evidence in GMark that the Disciples would be restored.

While I'm waiting I'll show Markan verses that seem to show all by themselves that the Disciples would not be restored:

Verse Commentary
8
31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders, and the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.
32 And he spake the saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him.
33 But he turning about, and seeing his disciples, rebuked Peter, and saith, Get thee behind me, Satan; for thou mindest not the things of God, but the things of men.
1. A chiasm that is all about reversal.
2. The reversal regards Jesus' words and the reaction to them. Peter rebukes Jesus' words and Jesus rebukes Peter's rebuke.
  • 34 And he called unto him the multitude with his disciples, and said unto them, If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
    35 For whosoever would save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel`s shall save it.
1. Now the reversal is how to save your life.
2. You save your life by losing it.
  • 36 For what doth it profit a man, to gain the whole world, and forfeit his life?
    37 For what should a man give in exchange for his life?
1. Now the reversal itself is reversed.
2. You lose your life by saving it.
3. Forms the inner part of the chiasm with the previous.
4. Typical Markan style, here, a reversal of a reversal, where a literary technique is taken one step further.
38 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of man also shall be ashamed of him, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. The final reversal and forms the outie of this chiasm with the first verse about Jesus' words and the consequence of not following them.
2. If you are ashamed of Jesus' words Jesus will be ashamed of you at Judgement.
3. Peter is the only one who is explicitly ashamed of Jesus' words here. The rest of GMark is consistent with Peter being ashamed of what Jesus said here. Jesus uses this as a teaching example to everyone. And for once, Jesus is speaking "plainly" here. So what does that say about Peter's future?

Bonus material for Solo = In the next verse Jesus is transfigured into The Light. Peter is the negative to Jesus' positive throughout the Gospel. If Peter is identified as Satan and forced to get behind Jesus, the intent may have been to put Peter in Jesus' shadow, thus showing Peter as transfigured into The Darkness (while Jesus is transfigured into The Light). Coincidence?

Joseph

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Your Inside is Out. Your Outside Is In.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5I94bT23cQ

JW:

10
28 Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.
29 Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or mother, or father, or children, or lands, for my sake, and for the gospel`s sake,
30 but he shall receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
31 But many [that are] first shall be last; and the last first.
Verses

3
16 and Simon he surnamed Peter;
17 and James the [son] of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and them he surnamed Boanerges, which is, Sons of thunder:
18 and Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the [son] of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Cananaean,
19 and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
"Simon" is the first and the last here not counting Judas but what about the "who also betrayed him"? I think the straightforward meaning is as translated, Judas was selected and betrayed Jesus. But is there a subtext that Simon/all appointees also betrayed Jesus?

Note that "Matthew" copies "Mark's" kai (and/also) but adds the definite article (also the one) and "Luke" exorcises the conjunctive kai (a pattern seen many times).


Joseph

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Reaction to "Peter's" Name

Post by JoeWallack »


Gospel GMark GMatthew GLuke GJohn
First Mention 1
16 And passing along by the sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and Andrew the brother of Simon casting a net in the sea; for they were fishers.
4
18 And walking by the sea of Galilee, he saw two brethren, Simon who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea; for they were fishers.
4
38 And he rose up from the synagogue, and entered into the house of Simon. And Simon`s wife`s mother was holden with a great fever; and they besought him for her.
4
40 One of the two that heard John [speak], and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter`s brother.
41 He findeth first his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messiah (which is, being interpreted, Christ).
42 He brought him unto Jesus. Jesus looked upon him, and said, Thou art Simon the son of John: thou shalt be called Cephas (which is by interpretation, Peter).
Commentary - - - -


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Re: Reaction to "Peter's" Name

Post by mlinssen »

JoeWallack wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 12:54 pm Joseph

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Gospel Thomas GJohn GMark GLuke GMatthew
First Mention 13
13. IS said to his Disciples: compare me, and say it to me: I resemble whom? Simon Peter said to him: you resemble a Righteous Messenger. Matthew said to him: you resemble a human Philosopher, man of heart/mind. Thomas said to him: oh writer, Wholly my mouth will receive him not that says it: you resemble who?
1
40 One of the two that heard John [speak], and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter`s brother.
41 He findeth first his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messiah (which is, being interpreted, Christ).
42 He brought him unto Jesus. Jesus looked upon him, and said, Thou art Simon the son of John: thou shalt be called Cephas (which is by interpretation, Peter){ἑρμηνεύεται: pres ind mp 3rd sg} who is-interpreted Peter.
1
16 And passing along by the sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and Andrew the brother of Simon casting a net in the sea; for they were fishers.
4
38 And he rose up from the synagogue, and entered into the house of Simon. And Simon`s wife`s mother was holden with a great fever; and they besought him for her.
4
18 And walking by the sea of Galilee, he saw two brethren, Simon who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea; for they were fishers.
Commentary - - - - -


John 1:42 papyri:

P66: ηγαγεν αυτον προς τον ι̅ν̅ εμβλεψας αυτω ο ι̅ς̅ ειπεν συ ει σιμων ο υ̅ς̅ ιωαννου συ κληθηση κηφας ο ερμηνευεταιπετρος
P75: ηγαγεν αυτον προς τον ι̅ν̅· εμβλεψας δε αυτω ο ι̅ς̅ ειπεν συ ει σιμων ο υιος ιωαννου συ κληθηση κηφας ο ερμηνευεται πετρος
P106: ηγα̣γεν α[υ]τ̣ον προς ι̅η̅[ν̅] [εμβλε]ψ̣α̣ς̣ αυτω ο ι̅η̅ς̅ ειπεν συ ε̣[ι] [σιμων] [ο] υ̣ι̣ο̣ς ιωαννου [σ]υ κληθη[ση] [κηφας] ο ερμηνευ[εται] πετ̣ρ̣ο̣ς̣
P119: [ηγαγεν] [α]υτον π̣[ρος] [τον] [ι̅ν̅] [εμβλεψας] [αυτω] [ο] [ι̅ς̅] [ειπεν] [αυτ]ω συ ει [σιμων] [ο] [υ̅ς̅] [ιωαννου] [συ] [κληθησ]η̣ κηφας [ο] [ερμηνευεται] [πετρος]
P120: [ερμη]ν̣ευεται π̣[ετρος]

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