Another text, another story

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Another text, another story

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

.
My impression is that a few Markan pericopes point to a different understanding of the story as in Matthew or Luke, but their understanding is completely dominated by the understanding of the Matthean or Lukan pericope. I do not mean a secret or allegorical understanding, but more or less on the surface.

With regard to the “Cursing of the fig tree” I will suggest a not unproblematic and – in some sense - “scandalous” understanding of Mark’s story. Criticism is encouraged.

But for today only the two texts. Luke omitted the story.

Mark 11:12-14;20-25Matthew 21:18-22
12 On the following day, when they came from Bethany, he was hungry. 13 And seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to see if he could find anything on it. When he came to it, he found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs.18 In the morning, as he was returning to the city, he became hungry. 19 And seeing a fig tree by the wayside, he went to it and found nothing on it but only leaves.
14 And he said to it, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.”And he said to it, “May no fruit ever come from you again!
And his disciples heard it. ..
As they passed by in the morning, they saw the fig tree withered away to its roots.And the fig tree withered at once.
21 And Peter remembered and said to him, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree that you cursed has withered.”20 When the disciples saw it, they marveled, saying, “How did the fig tree wither at once?”
22 And Jesus answered them, “Have faith in God. 23 Truly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and thrown into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says will come to pass, it will be done for him. 24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.21 And Jesus answered them, “Truly, I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what has been done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and thrown into the sea,’ it will happen. 22 And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith.”
25 And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.”

Giuseppe
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Re: Another text, another story

Post by Giuseppe »

Very interesting. If the temple was the old place where any Jew could gain forgiveness of his sins, now only Jesus is who can forgive the sins, even the sins of the same temple, after having just condemned it.

In moral terms, Jesus is more pure than the traditional purifier: the temple.

Matthew omitted a Jesus forgiving the fig tree just condemned by him not only to remove the portrait of the idiot disciples (and the relative conflict insiders vs otusiders of Mark 4) but also to preserve the need of a perduring condemnation of Israel (that Matthew wants to have still as he is more anti-Judaic).


This confirms again and again my view that the goal of Mark is to show that the Son of God has the power of forgiving the sins of the same Son of Man (''Jesus Nazarene'' in need of a baptism by John) and therefore of Adam himself (and of all humanity): something that neither Adam nor John the Baptist could do entirely.

When scribes and pharisees listen by Jesus himself about the power of the Son of Man:
Now some of the scribes were sitting there asking themselves, “Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming. Who but God alone can forgive sins?” Jesus immediately knew in his mind what they were thinking to themselves, so he said, “Why are you thinking such things in your hearts? Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Rise, pick up your mat and walk’? But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority to forgive sins on earth” — he said to the paralytic, “I say to you, rise, pick up your mat, and go home.” He rose, picked up his mat at once, and went away in the sight of everyone. They were all astounded and glorified God, saying, “We have never seen anything like this.”
(Mark 2:6-12)

Jesus says that ''the Son of Man'' has that authority but he don't say deliberately that the Son of Man is in that precise moment possessed by the Son of God. And if you accept that the ''paralytic carried by four men'' is the same Israel (Judea + Diaspora Jews of North, South, East and West), then it is even more clear the separation between the Son of God (who forgives) and the Son of Man (who is forgiven).
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Another text, another story

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

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My suggestion is simple

- Jesus did not curse the fig tree
- the fig tree did not wither
- all that happens only in the ears and in the eyes of the disciples
- because they did not bring forth “fruit”


1) Unlike in GMatthew in Mark’s story everything happens not objectively, but only subjectively.

In GMark Jesus’ saying is not directed against the fig tree – Mark 11:14
“May no one ever eat fruit from you again.”

The verb "φάγοι" (may eat) is in the optative mode, which expresses in ancient Greek a wish of the speaker. Although Jesus said it to the fig tree, the addressees of the wish are obviously the possible fruit eaters ( "no one may eat"). Jesus' wish presupposes therefore that fruit will grow on the fig tree later in the year, but no one should eat more of it. This wish of abstinence seems to be related to Jesus' own decision of abstinence in Mark 14:25
Truly, I say to you, I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.

In Mark’s story it is only Peter, who interpreted Jesus’ wish as a curse – Mark 11:21
And Peter remembered and said to him, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree that you cursed ...”

Unlike in GMatthew in Mark’s story it is not told objectively, that the fig tree withered: “they” have just seen it subjectively and again Peter interpreted it – Mark 11:20-21
As they passed by in the morning, they saw the fig tree withered away to its roots. And Peter remembered and said to him, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree that you cursed has withered.”

2) Tim Geddert (far away from my suggestion) wrote the following in his commentary
“Mark drops hint that this is a parabolic action. Parables call for “hearing ears” (cf. 4:9, 23). The last line of the present incident reads, “and his disciples heard him say it” (11:14b). We wonder, “Do they have hearing ears, ears that understand the meaning of this parable?” ... It suggests that here is a need of discernment and interpretation. When the story resumes the next morning (11:20), the first words are “they saw” (v. 20) and “Peter remembered” (v. 21). These three key words, “hear”, “see” und “remember”, are used in 8:14-21 to teach the disciples about discernment. They recur here in a text that calls on the disciples and the readers to discern what is really being said.”

Mark 8:17-18 Do you not yet perceive or understand? Are your hearts hardened? Having eyes do you not see, and having ears do you not hear? And do you not remember?

3) There is a good literary shaping.

Jesus’ answers to the fig tree and to the disciples are formulated in the same manner
fig tree (Mk 11:14) καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν αὐτῇ - And answering (he) said (to) it
disciples (Mk 11:22) καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ Ἰησοῦς λέγει αὐτοῖς - And answering the Jesus says (to) them

The fig tree and the disciples are also juxtaposed in Mark 13 (lesson of the fig tree). I think a careful translation reads as following:
28 Ἀπὸ δὲ τῆς συκῆς μάθετε τὴν παραβολήν • ὅταν ἤδη ὁ κλάδος αὐτῆς ἁπαλὸς γένηται καὶ ἐκφύῃ τὰ φύλλα , γινώσκετε ὅτι ἐγγὺς τὸ θέρος ἐστίν
28 But <-> from the fig tree learn the parable: when yet the branch (of) it becomes tender and puts-out the leaves, know that near the summer is.

29 οὕτως καὶ ὑμεῖς, ὅταν ἴδητε ταῦτα γινόμενα, γινώσκετε ὅτι ἐγγύς ἐστιν ἐπὶ θύραις.
29 So also you: when (you) see these becoming, know that near (it) is on (the) doors.

My impression is that the “these” in Mark 13:29 are the leaves of the fig tree which the disciples did not see.


4) Also related together are Mark 11:13 and Mark 13:28.

Mark 11:13 And seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to see if he could find anything on it. When he came to it, he found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs.
Mark 13:28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near

I think it is clear that Jesus speaks about the same fig tree. His saying indicates that this tree is not withered, but that the disciples have a problem with their eyes.
Giuseppe
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Re: Another text, another story

Post by Giuseppe »

I am not so sure (for what matters my view, obviously), but I observe these words of Jesus of (only) apparent compliments addressed to his disciples:
And Jesus answered them, “Have faith in God. Truly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and thrown into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says will come to pass, it will be done for him.
The mountain to be thrown in the ''sea'' (the Roman Mare Nostrum) will be the Temple of Jerusalem in 70 CE.

Therefore the antithesis (pardon for the term) would be between what the idiot disciples see really in the story and what will happen really in the History (but is already ''seen'' by the insider Jesus): the destruction of Jerusalem.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: Another text, another story

Post by Giuseppe »

(And excuse all my off topic), but here I want to raise the question:

when Jesus says:

''whoever says to this mountain, etc...''


is that ''whoever'' another term for ''son of man'' meant as ''a guy'' ? Something as:

''But that you may know that whoever has authority to forgive sins on earth”
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Another text, another story

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Giuseppe wrote:I am not so sure ...
Thanks. I'm completely sure that all are not so sure. :mrgreen:

But I’m really interested in the kind of argument against my suggestion.

- Is it only inconceivable that Mark could have written such a story
- or is it inconceivable that he could have portrayed the disciples in such a way
- or is there more a direct argument from the text against my suggestion?
Giuseppe
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Re: Another text, another story

Post by Giuseppe »

I would say that your suggestion requires a too much modern background, something as the Nietszche's constructivist aphorisma ''there are not facts, but only interpretations'': agreed that Mark is a genius, but not so much to anticipate the modern constructivism :mrgreen:

The concept of hallucination (to see something that is not really there) was unknown then , I think. Even when the disciples doubt to see Jesus in the lake, they claim to see a ''phantom'': a phantom is not ''nothing'' stricto sensu, but has still an ontological consistency. But your interpretation requires that the disciples were hallucinating an entire fig tree!
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Another text, another story

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Giuseppe wrote:I would say that your suggestion requires a too much modern background, something as the Nietszche's constructivist aphorisma ''there are not facts, but only interpretations'': agreed that Mark is a genius, but not so much to anticipate the modern constructivism :mrgreen:
Yes, I had a similar thought when I began to think about the possibility to understand the story in this way. I needed also some time to trust my idea a little bit. For example: I think an interesting problem is the question whether the fig tree in Mark 11 is the same as in Mark 13.

This would be hard to understand if we assume that the fig tree withered in Mark 11. Because of this most scholars think that it is not the same fig tree. But if we look at the text than we see three repeated themes in the same order in both “fig tree”-scenes.

- the leaves
- a question of time
- the “seeing” of the disciples

Here it seems rather hard to understand that these texts are not related and it should not be the same fig tree.
Mark 11:12-14;20-25Mark 13:28-29
12 On the following day, when they came from Bethany, he was hungry. 13 And seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to see if he could find anything on it. When he came to it, he found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs. 14 And he said to it, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard it.28 “From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near.
As they passed by in the morning, they saw the fig tree withered away to its roots. 21 And Peter remembered and said to him, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree that you cursed has withered.”So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that he is near, at the very gates.

iskander
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Re: Another text, another story

Post by iskander »

The withered fig tree is an excellent religious manifesto of the way.



Mark 11:12-14;20-25
12 On the following day, when they came from Bethany, he was hungry. 13 And seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to see if he could find anything on it. When he came to it, he found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs
That is , the morning following his visit to the temple ( verse 11) which it must have looked to Jesus as a leafy fig tree to feed the faithful. Jesus , however, found the food sold by the temple to be like poison.


14 And he said to it, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.”
May the temple lose its power to deceive


As they passed by in the morning, they saw the fig tree withered away to its roots.
And the temple had lost its power to deceive


21 And Peter remembered and said to him, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree that you cursed has withered.”
Is it possible to make the temple, the mosque, the cathedral , the ..., appear to all as a visible withered fig tree to be ignored or cut down?


22 And Jesus answered them, “Have faith in God. 23 Truly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and thrown into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says will come to pass, it will be done for him. 24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.
Yes. Faith is the mother of every religion.


25 And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses
Forgive and you will be forgiven. That is all what you need to reach God and find peace.
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Another text, another story

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Giuseppe wrote:The concept of hallucination (to see something that is not really there) was unknown then , I think. Even when the disciples doubt to see Jesus in the lake, they claim to see a ''phantom'': a phantom is not ''nothing'' stricto sensu, but has still an ontological consistency. But your interpretation requires that the disciples were hallucinating an entire fig tree!
Only the weathering of the fig tree, but I agree that this is an argument. On the other hand, so far I know allmost all scholars agree that the fig tree is just a symbol and means something. There are only different opinions what the fig tree symbolizes. At the end the halluzination would only mean "a wrong attitude" or "a wrong idea".

Btw, Iskander pointed out one of the two major ideas what the fig tree could symbolize: the institution of the temple.
iskander wrote:...14 And he said to it, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.”
May the temple lose its power to deceive

As they passed by in the morning, they saw the fig tree withered away to its roots.
And the temple had lost its power to deceive
The second is that the fig tree symbolizes “Israel”. But there are also other theories.

The main argument for the first theory is that the “Cleansing of temple” is sandwiched by the “Cursing of the fig tree” and that the fig tree is therefore a symbol of the temple. But my impression is that this theory ignores that in no Markan sandwich an object is symbolically mirrored in another object and that in the Hebrew bible and in Paul the fig tree is not a preconceived metaphor for the temple. ("Metaphors work only where the patterns are known")

The main argument for the second idea is that in the Hebrew bible the fig tree would allegedly symbolize Israel, what I would judge as wrong. There are only two verses in which good or early figs (and not the tree) symbolize good Isrealites.

In the Hewbrew bible the fig tree is (together with the vine) simply a sign of the times. In the good times "every man is sitting under his vine and under his fig tree” and in the bad times “the fig tree should not blossom, nor fruit be on the vines”. I have counted 20 of 28 “fig tree”-passages in the Septuagint with this or a similar meaning.

Mark used the fig tree in Mark 13 also as a sign of the end times. Therefore I suspect that the fig tree in Mark 11 participate also in this image.
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