Calling of the first disciples in Mark 1.16-20 and Genesis

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Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Calling of the first disciples in Mark 1.16-20 and Genesis

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

I´m working a little bit on Mark 1, 16-20 (Calling of the first Disciples) and have a little question.

Many scholars agree that Elijah's call of Elisha (1 Kgs 19.19-21) is the model for Mark. I think also that Mark had this in his mind. But it´s not perfect to me. There are similarities but also differences between the calls of Elijah and Jesus, on the one side, and the reactions of Elisha and the fishermen, on the other. It fits not very well as a model.

It seems a little bit to me that in the centre of the scene in Mark stand not just a tale about the first disciples. It´s also about the power of Jesus´ voice und the prompt reactions of the disciples. Therefore I was looking for a model of this theme. I don't know if it's too crazy but in the moment I´m thinking about Genesis 1, the Bereshit story. :eek: :mrgreen: There is a voice ("God said, 'Let there be light'") and a prompt reaction ("there was light").

I found also a few similarities between the scenes in Genesis and Mark, so "God saw" ("that the light was good") and Jesus "he saw" ("Simon and Andrew" and "James the son of Zebedee and John his brother"), both "eiden" in Greek (Septuagint and Mark). Then there is also "God said" and "Jesus said" ("to them, 'Follow me ...'), both "eipen" in Greek (Septuagint and Mark). Also "God called" ("the light Day") and Jesus "he called" ("them"), both "ekalesen" in Greek.

There is also a little crazy thing in Genesis 1, 26 "Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds ..." Here are the fishermen first :mrgreen: and you know Mark used "sea" for the Lake of Gennesaret. He used also the phrase "I will make you become fishers of men" - in Greek "kai poiêsô humas genesthai halieis anthrôpôn" and it seems also a bit that here is a word play in the relation between "make man in our image" and "fishermen" to "fishers of men".

So I´m thinking about the idea that Mark took Elijah's call of Elisha, but he interpreted it in the light of Genesis 1 to show the divine power of Jesus´voice. But when I was searching in the net I haven't found this idea.

If anyone has a little bit from the literature on this theme, I would be interested to hear it. And - do you think that the whole thing is too crazy? :scratch:
beowulf
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Re: Calling of the first disciples in Mark 1.16-20 and Genes

Post by beowulf »

This book is probably well known to you, but it is worth mentioning just in case.


The Crucial Bridge, The Elijah-Elisha Narrative as an interpretative Synthesis of Genesis-Kings and a Literary Model for the Gospels
Thomas L. Brodie O.P.
The Liturgical Press, 2000,
Collegeville, Minnesota
http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Crucial-Bri ... 081465942X
Bingo
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Re: Calling of the first disciples in Mark 1.16-20 and Genes

Post by Bingo »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:do you think that the whole thing is too crazy? :scratch:
Anything is possible if a person believes. :confusedsmiley:

I noticed this:

Jesus asked his disciples to follow him ...

Mark 1:17
Jesus said to them, “Follow me, and I will turn you into fishers of men.”

But later on he changed his mind and asked them to go first ...

Mark 6:45
Immediately Jesus made his disciples get into the boat and go on ahead of him to Bethsaida, while he dismissed the crowd.

Bethsaida means “house of fish”. :facepalm:

The story is just chock full of inside jokes.
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stephan happy huller
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Re: Calling of the first disciples in Mark 1.16-20 and Genes

Post by stephan happy huller »

I don't know if they would be 'inside jokes' if the Greek translator was copying out an Aramaic text. I think it is more likely that the Greek text (Catholic) deliberately developed the text in the direction of saida meaning 'fishing' or fish. If you look at Eccl 2.8 LXX I think a good case can be made that Bethsaida was just a nickname for Jerusalem or Shechem (= house of demons).
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Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Calling of the first disciples in Mark 1.16-20 and Genes

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

beowulf wrote:This book is probably well known to you, but it is worth mentioning just in case.


The Crucial Bridge, The Elijah-Elisha Narrative as an interpretative Synthesis of Genesis-Kings and a Literary Model for the Gospels
Thomas L. Brodie O.P.
The Liturgical Press, 2000,
Collegeville, Minnesota
http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Crucial-Bri ... 081465942X
Thanks, it´s interesting. Apparently Brodie isn't referring to certain verses of Genesis 1 in relation to Mark, but he speaks of the word in 1 Kings that is "like the word of creation, ruling both nature and humanity in a pattern of command-and-compliance".
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Re: Calling of the first disciples in Mark 1.16-20 and Genes

Post by mwFerguson_MTh »

stephan happy huller wrote:If you look at Eccl 2.8 LXX I think a good case can be made that Bethsaida was just a nickname for Jerusalem or Shechem (= house of demons).
Interesting, but I'm not seeing that (i.e., not at Eccl 2:8 in Brenton's LXX :confusedsmiley: )
"That upon which you set your heart and put your trust is properly your god."
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DCHindley
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Re: Calling of the first disciples in Mark 1.16-20 and Genes

Post by DCHindley »

mwFerguson_MTh wrote:
stephan happy huller wrote:If you look at Eccl 2.8 LXX I think a good case can be made that Bethsaida was just a nickname for Jerusalem or Shechem (= house of demons).
Interesting, but I'm not seeing that (i.e., not at Eccl 2:8 in Brenton's LXX :confusedsmiley: )
It took a bit of effort (because Stephan, even in his blog which was talking about this in 2011, never seems to have actually said what Rabbinic tradition made the interpretation he gives, that is, that Schechem" = "house of demons") but I identified what he was talking about.

RSV Ecclesiastes 2:8b I got singers, both men and women, and many concubines, man's delight.

BGT Ecclesiastes 2:8b ἐποίησά μοι ᾄδοντας καὶ ᾀδούσας καὶ ἐντρυφήματα υἱῶν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου οἰνοχόον καὶ οἰνοχόας

LXA Ecclesiastes 2:8b I procured me singing men and singing women, and delights of the sons of men, a butler and female cupbearers.

WTT Ecclesiastes 2:8 עָשִׂ֙יתִי לִ֜י שָׁרִ֣ים וְשָׁר֗וֹת וְתַעֲנוּגֹ֛ת בְּנֵ֥י הָאָדָ֖ם שִׁדָּ֥ה וְשִׁדּֽוֹת׃

In Rabbis, Language and Translation in Late Antiquity, by Willem F. Smelik, pg 400, he presents a passage related to Solomon's ability to control demons.
The following example is taken from b. Git. 68a:

עשיתי לי שרים ושרות ותענוגות בני האדם שדה ושדות שריס ושרית אלו מיני זמר
ותענוגות בני האדם אלו בריכות ומרחצאות שדה ושדות הכא תרגימו שידה ושידתין
במערבא אמרי שידתא אמר רבי יוחנן שלש מאות מיני שדים היו בשיחין ושידה עצמה
איני יודע מה היא אמר מר הכא תרגימו שידא ושידתין

'I got singers, both men and women, and delights of the flesh, and many concubines' (Qoh. 2.8).
שרים ושרות ('male and female singers') means diverse kinds of music; 'the delights of the sons of men' are ornamental pools and baths.
שדה ושדות 'Shida and shidot', here [in Babylonia] they translate as 'male and female demons'. In the West [Palestine] they say [it means] 'female demon'.
Rabbi Yohanan said, There were three hundred kinds of demons in Shiḥin, but what a shidah is I do not know.
Mar [i.e., the Master] said, Here they translate 'male and female demons'.
I'd highlight the two separate phrases in the original text and the Gemara in two different colors, but that would ruin the formatting, so folks will just have to pay close attention. The Rabbis in Babylonia seem to have interpreted the phrase " שדה ושדות " ("a mistress and concubines") as if it meant "male and female demons". It just so happens that the Greek translation of Ecclesiastes 2:8 mentions "male and female cupbearers."

Stephan seems to suggest that "Shiḥin" was a stand-in for Schechem [modern Nablus], but all the online commentaries seem to say that Shiḥin refers to the town of Asochis, a place near Sepphoris in Galilee, which was famous for the practice of magic.

There you go, mystery solved. Everyone can go home (or to bed, like I am, though without the concubines).

DCH :whistling:
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Calling of the first disciples in Mark 1.16-20 and Genes

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Thanks. Stephan´s explanation about Bethsaida is really great.
Bingo
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Re: Calling of the first disciples in Mark 1.16-20 and Genes

Post by Bingo »

stephan happy huller wrote:...if the Greek translator was copying out an Aramaic text ...
Oh.

I see.

Thanks stephan.
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