Time Shift scenarios and the New Testament texts

[TedM]

Are there any other unnamed messianic figures, prophets, leaders described (such as we see by Josephus in relation to the Egyptian and in the Slavonic account of the 'wonder-doer')?

I see that as a highly unusual thing, but maybe it isn't..?

You see what as "a highly unusual thing"?

To answer your 1st question: to me, Simon ben Kosiba comes to mind (especially in regard to the 'desolating sacrilege' Matt 24:15) ; but he is post-Josephus

I see any reference to a at least a semi-known figure without providing the name as highly unusual.

[outhouse]

In conclusion: the whole history of the Jewish rebellion is presented, mostly in subtext, in the New Testament, but the story of Jesus and his disciples are, as I see it, moved from the fifties, where the parallels between Jesus and the messianic leader whom Josephus calls "the Egyptian" are so numerous that it is very hard to attribute it to coincidence

I see Pauline textual traditions stopping this cold. Without Paul it could also be effectively argued against. We have Johns historicity and death, and a popular movement as his was, someone had to take over. I know you understand John had the franchise and Jesus ran with his popularity traveling and teaching to keep the message of his predecessor alive. He could not simple continue doing what John did and I personally see him out of spite of his mentors murder, trying to use the crowds as Passover to overthrow their oppressors.

The rhetorical prose all these gospel authors used, as you know reflects their time period, not Jesus time period. We also know they used this prose to compete against the Emperors divinity as well not knowing if these authors used the "circle drawer" and others Hellenistic magicians and teachers. So influence from the Egyptian is altogether possible without changing any time period here.

[MrMacSon]

In conclusion: the whole history of the Jewish rebellion is presented, mostly in subtext, in the New Testament, but the story of Jesus and his disciples are, as I see it, moved from the fifties, where the parallels between Jesus and the messianic leader whom Josephus calls "the Egyptian" are so numerous that it is very hard to attribute it to coincidence

I see Pauline textual traditions stopping this cold. Without Paul it could also be effectively argued against.

Stopping what cold? What do you mean by "Without Paul it could also be effectively argued against" ??

Have you read what Lena has said about Paul, particularly his relationship to her proposals, in this thread??

[DCHindley]

I had thought 'Slavonic Josephus' was an elaborate version of the TF, rather than being a version of 'War'.

Recent scholarly opinion dismisses the Slavonic Josephus as less than authentic, but an 11th-century creation as an ideological struggle against the Khazars

Davies, William David, ed. (2000). The Cambridge History of Judaism, Vol. 3: The Early Roman Period. ISBN 0-521-24377-7.

Well, that was the determination of Leeming & Leeming, the editors. They are a little biased towards Slavonic writers, and always saying how great they were as creative story-tellers. I can see what they are saying, having read Leeming & Leeming's translation of the Slavonic War, which is compared passage by passage with a fresh English translation of the Greek War, and also relative passages in Antiquities and sometimes other, Slavic, sources of a similar nature.

Despite what L & L thinks, I have always found the Slavonic War fascinating. Until L & L, though, all you had was a partial list of omissions and several additions related to Judean history of the Herodian age (folk stories about the Herodian princes), John the Baptist (I think he is referred to by that name, but even there I am not sure) and the "Wonder Worker" (Jesus), found in the Loeb edition of the War, and in Robert Eisler's Messiah Jesus and John the Baptist (1931?). Unfortunately, these earlier summaries and translations of the additions did not include the last n\book.

Jet's just say that the picture of the Wonder Worker (Jesus) in the Slavonic War is not that of the NT presenting him as a political person, maybe a revolutionary. I might have to get L & L again thru Inter-Library Loan just to copy the textual comparisons. There are a large number of weird twists to familiar stories from War, including military strategy and siege tactics.

I am not sure that I detect anti Khazar ideas, if Khazars are seen as Jewish converts, as I really don't see much anti-Judean sympathies either. In fact, the editor who created the current rescension of Slavonic War seemed to admire many of the tactics and strategies of war demonstrated by the Judeans, but also equally those of the Romans. The editor was at home with warring with others, and while seemingly in sympathy with the Eastern Orthodoxy, other statements suggest his actual religion was almost semi-pagan and was orthodox on the outside only.

DCH

[outhouse]

Have you read what Lena has said about Paul, particularly his relationship to her proposals, in this thread??

I don't buy it. Sorry, not enough there to substantiate anything. She knows she is out on a limb here. But I do respect her investigating this avenue in a professional manner.

[outhouse]

Maybe it was posted here is a link. http://lenaeinhorn.se/wp-content/upload ... .11.25.pdf

[outhouse]

The Egyptian like the gospel authors both Plagiarized the OT text, so many of the similarities lie in this plagiarism. Even Josephus mentions the Egyptian in context to the walls of Jericho as an example of said plagiarism.

[MrMacSon]

The Egyptian like the gospel authors both Plagiarized the OT text, so many of the similarities lie in this plagiarism.

What writings by the Egyptian show he plagiarised the OT?

[outhouse]

The Egyptian like the gospel authors both Plagiarized the OT text, so many of the similarities lie in this plagiarism.

What writings by the Egyptian show he plagiarised the OT?

Sorry you would have to know the topic and actually read Josephus, then you would know what I'm talking about. You have comprehensive issues here, I stated context clearly.

Josephus makes it clear what the Egyptian is said to have said, and done. Context is key here.

[outhouse]

Ill follow Price here, "speculative thesis"