Time Shift scenarios and the New Testament texts

[John2]

Lena wrote:

Acts 13:1 says: "“Now in the church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen a member of the court of Herod the ruler, and Saul.”

In this one sentence, there are three, or possibly even four, names very similar to names associated with the Jewish war

Josephus also mentions someone named Saul, who lived at the same time as the other people you mention.

Ant. 20.9.4: "Costobarus also, and Saulus, did themselves get together a multitude of wicked wretches, and this because they were of the royal family; and so they obtained favor among them, because of their kindred to Agrippa; but still they used violence with the people, and were very ready to plunder those that were weaker than themselves. And from that time it principally came to pass that our city was greatly disordered, and that all things grew worse and worse among us."

War 2.17.2: "So the men of power perceiving that the sedition was too hard for them to subdue, and that the danger which would arise from the Romans would come upon them first of all, endeavored to save themselves, and sent ambassadors, some to Florus, the chief of which was Simon the son of Ananias; and others to Agrippa, among whom the most eminent were Saul, and Antipas, and Costobarus, who were of the king's kindred; and they desired of them both that they would come with an army to the city, and cut off the seditious before it should be too hard to be subdued."

And in War 2.20.1 he is mentioned along with his friend named Philip (another name found in the NT):

"After this calamity had befallen Cestius, many of the most eminent of the Jews swam away from the city, as from a ship when it was going to sink; Costobarus, therefore, and Saul, who were brethren, together with Philip, the son of Jacimus, who was the commander of king Agrippa's forces, ran away from the city, and went to Cestius. But then how Antipas, who had been besieged with them in the king's palace, but would not fly away with them, was afterward slain by the seditious, we shall relate hereafter. However, Cestius sent Saul and his friends, at their own desire, to Achaia, to Nero, to inform him of the great distress they were in, and to lay the blame of their kindling the war upon Florus, as hoping to alleviate his own danger, by provoking his indignation against Florus."

[Lena Einhorn]

John2 wrote:

Josephus also mentions someone named Saul, who lived at the same time as the other people you mention.

Yes, he does. The reason I didn't mention him is that I don't associate the Saul of Acts -- who shall be Paul -- with that Saulus, mentioned by Josephus in connection with Costobarus. I am of course open to being wrong about this, but that's my hunch.
That does not, however, mean that I don't believe that Saul/Paul of the NT is connected to the rebellion subtext of the New Testament. In fact, I believe he is pivotal. And the clincher is Acts 21:38, when the Roman Commander says to Paul: “Then you are not the Egyptian who recently stirred up a revolt and led the four thousand Sicarii out into the wilderness?”

How about that for a riddle ...

[Secret Alias]

Is this really about 'time shift scenarios' or - as I would content - unbridled substitution of basic facts until we arrive at some sort of 'new truth' that we might prefer ultimately to the inherited understanding? I don't think small time shifts of the inherited narrative is at all controversial. A number of reputable scholars have entertained the possibility that the date for the crucifixion given in the Acts of Pilate tradition (c. 21 CE) might be correct. But what is being suggested in this thread goes far beyond a mere 9 year adjustment.

[John2]

Lena wrote:

"How about that for a riddle ..."

But Saul/Paul denies being the Egyptian in Acts 21:35. And the Saul in Josephus sought to disrupt the revolutionaries (who are said elsewhere to have been messianic) in cahoots with the ruling authorities, similar to Saul in Acts 9.

[Secret Alias]

Do at least some of the participants in this futile discussion see the difficulty in any reasonable person taking any of this seriously?

[MrMacSon]

Hi MrMacSon,
Thanks for your good summary and comments.
Now to your final remarks -- that my interpretation, and that of others, that there are symbolic elements in the NT narratives probably also leads to the conclusion that Jesus is a "composite", an entirely symbolic figure -- these are my reflections:

I don't believe this is the case (that Jesus is an entirely symbolic, or even composite, figure) . But discussing these issues in fora where mainly mythicists write, I have come to realize that the belief in a mythical Jesus is a core belief as strong -- and sometimes even stronger -- than a belief in a divine Jesus. It carries the weight of a profound conviction. And profound convictions are almost impossible to shake.

I have had an hypothesis that the narrative about the NT Jesus of Nazareth developed chronologically away from the first 2-3 decades of the 1st century AD/CE (and was possibly written well away spatially as well). I look for and evaluate information that supports that hypothesis. Being able to engage and discuss these scenarios with someone who has looked at the core of the 1st century records is a interesting.

I also have an hypothesis that the core of the NT narratives about Jesus 'the man' were concreted in conjunction with the disputes about his nature. I have another hypothesis that such narratives about the NT-Jesus's human characteristics were merged with gnostic/Docetic/Marcionite/other concepts of Christ. I have another hypothesis that Egyptian mystery religions influenced some of this (they were probably growing faster than Christianity in the eastern Mediterranean the late 1st century and 2nd century). But clearly there is a lot of midrash based on the Septuagint/LXX and the Hebrew OT in the NT.

I also had a hypothesis that a lot of this happened in the 2nd century, but there is scant support for a well developed NT in information form the 3rd century.

The paucity of information (as good evidence) for a well developed canon in the 3rd century is, to my mind, glaring.

[MrMacSon]

Lena wrote:

"How about that for a riddle ..."

But Saul/Paul denies being the Egyptian in Acts 21:35. And the Saul in Josephus sought to disrupt the revolutionaries (who are said elsewhere to have been messianic) in cahoots with the ruling authorities, similar to Saul in Acts 9.

Paul deflected by saying he was a Jew.

[Lena Einhorn]

John2 wrote:

But Saul/Paul denies being the Egyptian in Acts 21:35.

Do you mean Acts 21:39?
No, he doesn't deny or confirm. He simply answers: "I am a Jew of Tarsus in Cilicia."
That's what I mean about the intricate subtext in the NT narrative. When the story is disguised on one level, it is opened up on another, and vice versa.
When Jesus first tells his disciples that "the one who has no sword must sell his cloak and buy one", he soon thereafter tells them "Put your sword back into its place, for all those who take the sword will die by the sword."
So is Jesus a rebellious zealot, or is he a peacelover? The New Testament is constantly telling us one thing, and then telling us almost the opposite. It's a brilliant maze.

[MrMacSon]

Lena wrote:

"How about that for a riddle ..."

But Saul/Paul denies being the Egyptian in Acts 21:35. And the Saul in Josephus sought to disrupt the revolutionaries (who are said elsewhere to have been messianic) in cahoots with the ruling authorities, similar to Saul in Acts 9.

Paul was being challenged. Acts 17:21-end (RSV)

17 When we had come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18 On the following day Paul went in with us to James; and all the elders were present.

19 After greeting them, he related one by one the things that God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry.

20 And when they heard it, they glorified God. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed; they are all zealous for the law,

21 and they have been told about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or observe the customs. 22 What then is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 Do therefore what we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; 24 take these men and purify yourself along with them and pay their expenses, so that they may shave their heads. Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you but that you yourself live in observance of the law. 25 But as for the Gentiles who have believed, we have sent a letter with our judgment that they should abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from unchastity.”

26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day he purified himself with them and went into the temple, to give notice when the days of purification would be fulfilled and the offering presented for every one of them.

27 When the seven days were almost completed, the Jews from Asia, who had seen him in the temple, stirred up all the crowd, and laid hands on him, 28 crying out, “Men of Israel, help! This is the man who is teaching men everywhere against the people and the law and this place; moreover he also brought Greeks into the temple, and he has defiled this holy place.” 29 For they had previously seen Troph′imus the Ephesian with him in the city, and they supposed that Paul had brought him into the temple.

30 Then all the city was aroused, and the people ran together; they seized Paul and dragged him out of the temple, and at once the gates were shut. 31 And as they were trying to kill him, word came to the tribune of the cohort that all Jerusalem was in confusion. 32 He at once took soldiers and centurions, and ran down to them; and when they saw the tribune and the soldiers, they stopped beating Paul. 33 Then the tribune came up and arrested him, and ordered him to be bound with two chains. He inquired who he was and what he had done. 34 Some in the crowd shouted one thing, some another; and as he could not learn the facts because of the uproar, he ordered him to be brought into the barracks. 35 And when he came to the steps, he was actually carried by the soldiers because of the violence of the crowd; 36 for the mob of the people followed, crying, “Away with him!”

37 As Paul was about to be brought into the barracks, he said to the tribune, “May I say something to you?” And he said, “Do you know Greek? 38 Are you not the Egyptian, then, who recently stirred up a revolt and led the four thousand men of the Assassins out into the wilderness?”

39 Paul replied, “I am a Jew, from Tarsus in Cili′cia, a citizen of no mean city; I beg you, let me speak to the people.” 40 And when he had given him leave, Paul, standing on the steps, motioned with his hand to the people; and when there was a great hush, he spoke to them in the Hebrew language...[to Acts 22]

Paul the shape-shifter

[Lena Einhorn]

This, from my reading, is where the tribune gets the idea that Paul is "the Egyptian":
"33 Then the tribune came up and arrested him, and ordered him to be bound with two chains. He inquired who he was and what he had done. 34 Some in the crowd shouted one thing, some another; and as he could not learn the facts because of the uproar, he ordered him to be brought into the barracks."

Thus, it seems he got that information from some in the crowd.