Time Shift scenarios and the New Testament texts

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
FransJVermeiren
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Re: Time Shift scenarios and the New Testament texts

Post by FransJVermeiren »

Giuseppe wrote:Frans, do you think that some Greek-Roman had suspected something about who is behind the Gospel Jesus? That part of the truth had leaked among the outsiders ? And if yes, with which effect?
I cannot say anything substantial about this. Long ago I read the first part of Origen's 'Contra Celsum', and I had the impression that Celsus knew about the real origins of Christianity, but I didn't study this further. After Christianity became powerful as Rome's state religion, Christians had all opportunity to dispose of material (Christian as well as Greek-Roman) that was not in concordance with the chronologically forged story Mark had invented, and they did (as well as they destroyed all polytheistic Greek-Roman temples).
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Time Shift scenarios and the New Testament texts

Post by Ben C. Smith »

TedM wrote:So there are maybe a dozen such public figures named, and only 3 unnamed - two of which 'Jesus' and the 'Egyptian'?
Josephus gives the impression of there having been many, many seditious figures, of which he has selected only the most notable to describe. Josephus, Antiquities 20.8.5 §160-161a: "Now as for the affairs of the Jews, they grew worse and worse continually, for the country was again filled with thieves and enchanters who deluded the multitude. Yet Felix caught and put to death many of those enchanters every day, together with the thieves." Wars 2.13.4 §258-260: "There was also another body of wicked men gotten together, not so impure in their actions, but more wicked in their intentions, which laid waste the happy state of the city no less than did these murderers. These were such men as deceived and deluded the people by pretense of divination, but were for procuring innovations and changes of the government; and these prevailed with the multitude to act like madmen, and went before them into the wilderness, as pretending that God would there show them the signs of liberty. But Felix thought that this procedure was to be the beginning of a revolt, so he sent some horsemen and footmen both armed, who destroyed a great number of them."
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FransJVermeiren
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Re: Time Shift scenarios and the New Testament texts

Post by FransJVermeiren »

Lena Einhorn wrote:FransJVermeiren wrote:
I think Simon bar Giora is present elsewhere in the NT, in the Gospel of Luke in particular. I hope to discuss that story soon (in a new topic).
Really curious to hear about that! I see him in the raising of the widow's son from Nain (the only place Nain is mentioned by Josephus is in connection with Simon using Nain as his base in the earlier parts of the Jewish war).
To Lena: I just started the new topic 'Vespasian, the king of the parable of the ten pounds?' where you will meet Simon bar Giora.
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Lena Einhorn
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Re: Time Shift scenarios and the New Testament texts

Post by Lena Einhorn »

To Frans (about Simon):
Great!
TedM
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Re: Time Shift scenarios and the New Testament texts

Post by TedM »

Lena Einhorn wrote:To TedM:
I'm not sure I follow your question. Josephus writes about "impostors", in plural, under Felix, for instance. But only a few of those during the first century does he write extensively about, and names.
With regard to"the Egyptian": he is one of the messianic rebel leaders Josephus writes extensively about, in both his major works. Whether you consider "the Egyptian" a name is of course doubtful (he only in fact writes that "he came out of Egypt"). But the reason I quoted Archbishop Amulo above is that it seems, at least in his time, the ninth century, the Jews referred to Jesus only as "the Egyptian Disperser/Destroyer". No other name.
To Lena and Ben,

All I'm trying to better understand is the relative percentage of figures in the 1st century who gathered some kind of public following for leading some kind of messianic or rebellious movement whose actual names are not given despite the author describing actions specific to the individual. Those who are simply mentioned in passing as 'imposters' or 'troublemakers' or "enchanters" would not apply. The 'Egyptian' and the 'wonder-doer' would fall under the category of 'unnamed'. Having this kind of percentage would enable us to more clearly determine how much weight to give to the fact that Slavonic Josephus doesn't name Jesus in the main passage that introduces and discusses him. If Josephus talks at length about known public figures and their specific actions and doesn't name them say 30% of the time, then the issue of 'naming/not naming' takes on much less importance when comparing to the Egyptian than if he does it only 5% of the time.

I would think that it is closer to 5% than 30% - and therefore highly notable that both the "wonder-doer" and the "Egyptian" are unnamed, given the other similarities they share.
Lena Einhorn
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Re: Time Shift scenarios and the New Testament texts

Post by Lena Einhorn »

To TedM:
Why do you think the naming is so important?
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Re: Time Shift scenarios and the New Testament texts

Post by FransJVermeiren »

Lena Einhorn wrote:To Frans:
To me, the story of the demoniacs in Gerasa/Gadara is symbolic. By that I don't mean symbolic in a non-realistic sense, but rather symbolic in that the story is all in subtext. If, as I have suggested earlier in this thread (page 2) the story is about Simon bar Giora and John of Gischala -- and of how they come out of the caverns at the end of the Jewish war -- then none of it happens near the Sea of Galilee. But the names "Gerasa" and "Gadara" would still mean something, since Simon bar Giora came from Gerasa, and John of Gischala first became known for fighting the Gadarenes.

So to me, the issue of how close Gerasa or Gadara are to the Sea of Galilee is not so important -- other than that if they are placed far from the sea, then that would make it yet another one of those "strange mistakes" in the NT narratives, mistakes that never are mistakes, but rather clues.

Earlier I suggested that the story of Jesus in the Gadarene region might be the story of a raid in hostile territory in a period of escalated ethnic/religious tension between Jews at one shore of the Sea of Galilee and gentile inhabitants of the Decapolis on the other.

I have been rereading the story with the following two presuppositions:
1. That Jesus didn’t have the power to move demons from a man with a mental/behavioral problem to a herd of pigs.
2. That a man with mental/behavioral problem can speak the truth or act in his own interest, so we should take him seriously.

Then we discern the following elements in this paragraph:
• On arrival in the other region a mentally ill man says to Jesus: ‘I adjure you by God, do not harass me.’ The man sees Jesus and his group as people who are able to harass him, probably because they are armed.
• Then the man begs Jesus not to send him out of the region. In contact with hostile Jews this might mean that he begs Jesus not to be carried off to Jewish territory, where he would be treated badly.
• Jesus and his troop drown a herd of pigs in the Sea of Galilee.
• The herdsmen can’t withstand the arms and the superior numbers of the Jews, and flee.
• The people who come to see what happened are afraid.
• Jesus is begged to depart from their territory. In fact the Greek says ‘to depart over the boundary’ which might reflect the opposition between the two conflicting regions. The enemy has crossed the border and is urged to retreat into his own territory.

After all I do not see any symbolic or mysterious element in this story. I believe the subtext of this story is a raid on hostile soil, part of the outbreak of severe ethnic hostilities in Palestine and the surrounding areas after the massacre of the Jews of Caesarea in August 66 CE. So this raid can be dated in the autumn of 66 CE.
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The practical modes of concealment are limited only by the imaginative capacity of subordinates. James C. Scott, Domination and the Arts of Resistance.
Lena Einhorn
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Re: Time Shift scenarios and the New Testament texts

Post by Lena Einhorn »

To TedM:
Is it that both "the Egyptian" and the messianic character (Jesus) in the Slavonic TF are unnamed? And therefore share yet another similarity?
Well the "impostor" under Festus mentioned earlier in this thread is also unnamed. But Josephus doesn't spend nearly as much ink on him as he does on"the Egyptian". Without having explored the issue in depth, I don't think any other messianic leader described in such detail as "the Egyptian" remains unnamed.
TedM
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Re: Time Shift scenarios and the New Testament texts

Post by TedM »

Lena Einhorn wrote:To TedM:
Is it that both "the Egyptian" and the messianic character (Jesus) in the Slavonic TF are unnamed? And therefore share yet another similarity?
Yes, that is exactly it. It has to do with probability. If being 'unnamed' is unusual, then I see having both an unnamed 'wonder-doer' and an unnamed 'Egyptian' involved with a battle on the Mount of Olives as more likely that they are one and the same unnamed person than if one story had Jesus and the other had Bob, or if one story had Jesus and the other had the Egyptian or if one had the wonder-doer and the other had Bob. Both being unnamed matters.
Well the "impostor" under Festus mentioned earlier in this thread is also unnamed. But Josephus doesn't spend nearly as much ink on him as he does on"the Egyptian". Without having explored the issue in depth, I don't think any other messianic leader described in such detail as "the Egyptian" remains unnamed.
Then I see that as significant. If it was 50% unnamed, 50% named then its a coin flip and it wouldn't matter, but if it was ununusal to not name such an individual then having 2 of them show up in very similar stories unnamed greatly increases the likelihood that they are the same person.
Lena Einhorn
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Re: Time Shift scenarios and the New Testament texts

Post by Lena Einhorn »

TedM wrote:
If it was 50% unnamed, 50% named then its a coin flip and it wouldn't matter, but if it was ununusal to not name such an individual then having 2 of them show up in very similar stories unnamed greatly increases the likelihood that they are the same person.
In Antiquities 18.4.1 Josephus does describe an unnamed Samaritan messianic leader, in Samaria, under Pilate:
BUT the nation of the Samaritans did not escape without tumults. The man who excited them to it was one who thought lying a thing of little consequence, and who contrived every thing so that the multitude might be pleased; so he bid them to get together upon Mount Gerizzim, which is by them looked upon as the most holy of all mountains, and assured them, that when they were come thither, he would show them those sacred vessels which were laid under that place, because Moses put them there (12) So they came thither armed, and thought the discourse of the man probable; and as they abode at a certain village, which was called Tirathaba, they got the rest together to them, and desired to go up the mountain in a great multitude together; but Pilate prevented their going up, by seizing upon file roads with a great band of horsemen and foot-men, who fell upon those that were gotten together in the village; and when it came to an action, some of them they slew, and others of them they put to flight, and took a great many alive, the principal of which, and also the most potent of those that fled away, Pilate ordered to be slain.
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