The woman with the hemorrhage: a political story?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Lena Einhorn
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Re: The woman with the hemorrhage: a political story?

Post by Lena Einhorn »

First of all: I was not the one who initiated this discussion.
Second, these are the parallels between those segments: Two men named Ananias, who both lay claim to proceeds that rightfully belong to others, are both later killed with their next-of-kin (in one case the wife, in the other the brother). In both cases, Ananias’s accusers have been imprisoned, and in both cases they have been released from prison, against the wishes of the authorities, and in the presence of the prison guards. Then later, in both cases, the leaders of these ex-prisoners go straight into the Temple and start preaching and worshipping. Something which, in both cases, leads the captain of the Temple to confront them, and with his people to try to kill them.
Secret Alias
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Re: The woman with the hemorrhage: a political story?

Post by Secret Alias »

Alright. That's something for people at the forum to chew on. I won't comment on this too much more in order not to seem to negative. Here is what I think you have laid out:

1. Two men named Ananias,
2. who both lay claim to proceeds that rightfully belong to others
3. (both) are both later killed with their next-of-kin (in one case the wife, in the other the brother).
4. In both cases, Ananias’s accusers have been imprisoned,
5. and in both cases they have been released from prison, against the wishes of the authorities, and in the presence of the prison guards.
6. Then later, in both cases, the leaders of these ex-prisoners go straight into the Temple and start preaching and worshipping.
7. which, in both cases, leads the captain of the Temple to confront them, and with his people to try to kill them.

I will say that most prison stories go on to some sort of release otherwise they are hard to connect back to a broader history (unless you are reading a history of imprisoned people). Being released 'in the presence of the prison guards' is hardly noteworthy. If they were both released in front of 10 foot rabbits dressed in prison guard uniforms that would be something.

If you were suggesting that Acts invented a story out of Josephus you might have something going for your argument. But if you are making the case that a 'real historical event' underlies both I can't go along with you. Just nothing there and too many differences.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
iskander
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Re: The woman with the hemorrhage: a political story?

Post by iskander »

Lena Einhorn wrote:First of all: I was not the one who initiated this discussion.
Second, these are the parallels between those segments: Two men named Ananias, who both lay claim to proceeds that rightfully belong to others, are both later killed with their next-of-kin (in one case the wife, in the other the brother). In both cases, Ananias’s accusers have been imprisoned, and in both cases they have been released from prison, against the wishes of the authorities, and in the presence of the prison guards. Then later, in both cases, the leaders of these ex-prisoners go straight into the Temple and start preaching and worshipping. Something which, in both cases, leads the captain of the Temple to confront them, and with his people to try to kill them.
I don't know if you have seen this recent thread.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2254&hilit=antigonus
Lena Einhorn
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Re: The woman with the hemorrhage: a political story?

Post by Lena Einhorn »

I have. Thanks.
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MrMacSon
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Re: The woman with the hemorrhage: a political story?

Post by MrMacSon »

Secret Alias wrote:
I glanced at the parallels. I have to admit I don't think they are as exciting as you do. But the truth is that there is a part of me that wishes they were stronger so I could help explain why Irenaeus thinks Jesus lived in the time of Claudius (which you allude to twice in your work).
Yes, you do have a focus on Irenaeus (and Tertullian).
Secret Alias wrote: I guess my difficulty is with hanging too much weight on Acts.
'on Acts' as what? Acts is not history of Christian figures per se. Acts reflects elaboration of the Christian narrative.
Secret Alias wrote: I wish you'd summarize your strongest arguments here in the forum and let us take them apart one by one and see how much substance there is rather than handing a book to us and say 'read it.' Could you make an argument based on the book for some sort of relationship between Acts and Josephus here?
'take them apart' sound pretty adversarial.

In the post immediately prior to this one of yours I am addressing, Lena had referred to some of her work -viz. (my underlining & bolding) -
Lena Einhorn wrote:To Frans:
That Lazarus (Eleazar in Hebrew) is Eleazar son of Ananias is an interesting thought. As also Eleazar son of Ananias is a rebel leader in the Jewish war -- just like Eleazar son of Jairus -- it could of course be him. The replacement of "Lazarus" with "the daughter of Jairus" in the synoptic Gospels would however, it seems to me, make Eleazar son of Jairus a more likely choice, based on the names. I would therefore be very curious to know why you think he might be Eleazar son of Ananias.

I would like to add one more thing, regarding Eleazar son of Ananias: I believe he is mentioned in Acts chapter 5 as "the captain of the Temple." Both in my book A Shift in Time --pp. 155-58-- and in the article I have uploaded online (http://lenaeinhorn.se/wp-content/upload ... .11.25.pdf) -- pp. 21-24 --
I have placed Acts 5:1-33 next to Josephus' Antiquities 20:204-210 and War 2:441-446. The parallels are striking, not to say astonishing. It is as if they tell the same story. And if this is really the case, not only is "the captain of the Temple" in Acts identical to the captain of the Temple in Josephus -- i.e. Eleazar son of Ananias -- but Ananias in Acts would be identical to high priest Ananias in Josephus, and, most remarkably, Simon Peter in Acts would be identical to rebel leader Menahem. I would invite everyone to make the comparison.
The context was discussing options in a new light. Something we are all frequently doing here.
FransJVermeiren
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Re: The woman with the hemorrhage: a political story?

Post by FransJVermeiren »

[quote="Lena Einhorn"]To Frans:
That Lazarus (Eleazar in Hebrew) is Eleazar son of Ananias is an interesting thought. As also Eleazar son of Ananias is a rebel leader in the Jewish war -- just like Eleazar son of Jairus -- it could of course be him. The replacement of "Lazarus" with "the daughter of Jairus" in the synoptic Gospels would however, it seems to me, make Eleazar son of Jairus a more likely choice, based on the names. I would therefore be very curious to know why you think he might be Eleazar son of Ananias.


To Lena Einhorn
First of all, I do not replace ‘Lazarus’ with ‘the daughter of Jairus’ in the synoptic Gospels, I only say that, if there is a daughter of Jairus in Mark and one single Jair(us) in Josephus’s Jewish War, as the father of Eleazar (Lazarus) son of Jair, then this (symbolic) ‘daughter of Jair’ might be linked to the (historical) ‘Eleazar son of Jair’. This has nothing to do with the story of Lazarus and the rich man elsewhere in the Synoptic gospels (Luke 16).

Then about the Lazarus of John 11. The story of the raising of Lazarus is so detailed that it seems to describe a short episode in the life of Jesus and Lazarus. During my research I didn’t study this Lazarus story, but based on other argumenst I concluded that the Jesus of the Gospels is the same person as Jesus son of Saphat/Sapphias/Sapphas in Josephus’s ‘War’ and ‘Life’.
Afterwards, when I took a closer look at this story, I discovered a fragment in Josephus’s ‘War’ where Jesus son of Sapphas is mentioned in the same sentence as Eleazar son of Ananias. These two men were appointed together as revolutionary generals for the southern region of Idumaea at the beginning of the revolt in 66 CE. Josephus’s text goes as follows (War II, 566): ‘Other generals were selected for Idumaea, namely Jesus son of Sapphas, one of the chief priests, and Eleazar, son of the high priest Ananias; the then governor of Idumaea, Niger, also called the Peraean because he was a native of Peraea east of Jordan, was instructed to act under order of these officers.’ (During the same meeting of the revolutionary council in the Temple Josephus was appointed as the commander of Galilee – Josephus and Jesus would meet each other in Galilee during the following year).
Earlier in War II Josephus describes the ‘very bold youth’ Eleazar who provoked the war by refusing offerings for the Roman emperor (see the appreciated contribution of DCHindley on page 3 of this topic). John 11 seems to describe a Lazarus who foresees his wretched fate of imprisonment, torture and execution in case the Romans were to reconquer Palestine. This causes a serious psychological crisis which urges his family to confine Lazarus in a memorial, to protect him against (further?) automutilation and to ask his friend Jesus for help. In a combined reading we see a realistic evolution from unbridled initial enthusiasm (in Josephus) to deep despair in the prospect of complete defeat (and probably after realising what he had triggered) (in John 11). This is why I believe the Lazarus of John 11 is Lazarus son of Ananias, while the daughter of Jairus points to Eleazar son of Jair. The period is the same one: the years of the war of the Jews against the Romans.
Secret Alias
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Re: The woman with the hemorrhage: a political story?

Post by Secret Alias »

'take them apart' sound pretty adversarial.
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“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Lena Einhorn
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Re: The woman with the hemorrhage: a political story?

Post by Lena Einhorn »

Thanks Frans.
I didn't mean that YOU replaced "Lazarus" with "the daughter of Jairus." What I meant was that the raising of Lazarus is only described in John, and the raising of the daughter of Jairus is only described in the other three Gospels. Therefore, if one speculates that the tales refer to the same story, the name of the person raised would be Lazarus (Eleazar) son of Jairus. Which is exactly identical to the name of the last Jewish rebel leader against Rome.

Now with regard to your identification of Lazarus with Eleazar son of Ananias: Am I to understand that your main reason for making this identification is that E. son of A. (by Josephus) is mentioned in connection with Jesus son of Sapphas? And that, consequently, your suggested "shared element" with the Lazarus of the Gospels is that he also was associated with someone named Jesus? If so, you would really need very strong parallels between the Jesus of the Gospels and Jesus son of Sapphas. What are those parallels?
FransJVermeiren
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Re: The woman with the hemorrhage: a political story?

Post by FransJVermeiren »

In Josephus:
Jesus' (son of Sapphas) + Eleazars (son of Ananias) joint appointment probably means that the revolutionary council believes that these two can work together, maybe they are friends.

In John 11:
Jesus is asked to come to the aid of Lazarus. I believe it is not difficult to conclude from the text that these two men are friends.

For me the friendship between these two men in both sources is a second reason for their identification.


I am not going to discuss the parallels between the Jesus of the Gospels and Jesus son of Sapphat in this topic. This is extensively described in my book ‘A Chronological Revision of the Origins of Christianity’. You should read it.
www.waroriginsofchristianity.com

The practical modes of concealment are limited only by the imaginative capacity of subordinates. James C. Scott, Domination and the Arts of Resistance.
Lena Einhorn
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Re: The woman with the hemorrhage: a political story?

Post by Lena Einhorn »

Ok
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