The woman with the hemorrhage: a political story?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
iskander
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Re: The woman with the hemorrhage: a political story?

Post by iskander » Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:12 am

Charles Wilson wrote:
iskander wrote:What could have the touching of the fringes meant for Jesus and the woman?
Continuing with the Assumption of Symbolism made so far, if the Woman represents the Unclean Nation, then the Fringe of the Garment would be from some Robe worn by a Priest, which fits the Symbolic Character perfectly.
Only the Priesthood, which represents the Nation to God at the Altar, can make her clean:

Leviticus 15: 25 - 31 (RSV):

[25] "If a woman has a discharge of blood for many days, not at the time of her impurity, or if she has a discharge beyond the time of her impurity, all the days of the discharge she shall continue in uncleanness; as in the days of her impurity, she shall be unclean.
[26] Every bed on which she lies, all the days of her discharge, shall be to her as the bed of her impurity; and everything on which she sits shall be unclean, as in the uncleanness of her impurity.
[27] And whoever touches these things shall be unclean, and shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the evening.
[28] But if she is cleansed of her discharge, she shall count for herself seven days, and after that she shall be clean.
[29] And on the eighth day she shall take two turtledoves or two young pigeons, and bring them to the priest, to the door of the tent of meeting.
[30] And the priest shall offer one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering; and the priest shall make atonement for her before the LORD for her unclean discharge.
[31] "Thus you shall keep the people of Israel separate from their uncleanness, lest they die in their uncleanness by defiling my tabernacle that is in their midst."

"Thus you shall keep the people of Israel separate from their uncleanness, lest they die in their uncleanness by defiling my tabernacle that is in their midst."

Thus, if the Nation-as-Woman is Unclean, only the Priesthood may Intercede and make clean the Uncleanliness, lest the Tabernacle be Defiled.

Mark 6: 55 - 56 (RSV):

[55] and ran about the whole neighborhood and began to bring sick people on their pallets to any place where they heard he was.
[56] And wherever he came, in villages, cities, or country, they laid the sick in the market places, and besought him that they might touch even the fringe of his garment; and as many as touched it were made well.

This is not a savior/god. This is a Priest. The Story is about the Priesthood. Even this, however, may be rewritten, as it was. "Priesthood? Wasn't that Done Away?..."

CW


Mark 6:56
2899 [e]
kraspedou
κρασπέδου
fringe
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/mark/6-56.htm
http://biblehub.com/greek/2899.htm
The woman touched the " fringe, tassel, tzitzit" of his clothing.

The Hebrew noun tzitzit [tsiˈtsit] (Hebrew: ציצית, Modern tsitsit, Tiberian sˤisˤiṯ; plural tsitsiyot) is the name for specially knotted ritual fringes, or tassels, worn in antiquity by Israelites and today by observant Jews and Samaritans
https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=tzitzit

Charles Wilson
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Re: The woman with the hemorrhage: a political story?

Post by Charles Wilson » Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:31 am

Iskander --

So, do you disagree with the Analysis here? Does "Tassel" mean that the Story given is dishonest, that ANYONE who wore a Robe with a fringe on it could have been healing all of this time? Did Jesus have some sort of Force-Field surrounding him that only extended as far as his garments? Is it similar to the "Speaking in Tongues" in Acts that shows that God's Power only extended as far as Cyrene?

Do you agree with the Symbolism here or not? If not, then why not?

Just want to know.

Best,

CW
Last edited by Charles Wilson on Sat Jul 16, 2016 9:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

iskander
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Re: The woman with the hemorrhage: a political story?

Post by iskander » Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:49 am

It is a religious story and it should be read as such. Jesus is an ordinary Jewish man --like Moses and many others-- who wears tzitzit. A literal interpretation is that the story tells of the healing of a physical ailment.

A symbolic interpretation would be based on what the story is trying to say . It is not in the gospel of Mark, but the story is about " God is with us". [ like in the burning bush].

Lena Einhorn
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Re: The woman with the hemorrhage: a political story?

Post by Lena Einhorn » Fri Jul 15, 2016 11:31 am

To Charles Wilson: I received your message, but I seem to be unable to reply directly, so I'll do it here (as it pertains to this thread).
By "collapsing" the raising of Jairus' daughter with the raising of Lazarus, I mean combining, and extracting the common denominators. The two raisings appear on some levels to be exchangeable, as the raising of Jairus' daughter is found in three Gospels only, and that of Lazarus in the fourth only (John). Added to this is the fact that Lazarus is mentioned also in another context, but in Luke, not John. Finally, there are many common elements in these two raisings. So if one would combine them, the person would becalled "the daughter of Jairus" in three Gospels and "Lazarus" in the fourth. If that indeed is the same person, the name would be Lazarus son of Jairus. Lazarus, or Eleazar in Hebrew, son of Jairus was the last rebel leader of the Jewish war. That in and of it self is perhaps not a strong enough analogy. But added to this, the third raising performed by Jesus -- the widow's son at Nain -- also includes a name related to the Jewish war (Nain).

Now, if these were the only parallels between the New Testament and Josephus that contain names associated with the Jewish rebellion against Rome, I would still not consider them particularly interesting or relevant. But they are not the only ones. In A Shift in Time I describe how these rebellion-related parallels appear again and again and again when one compares the New Testament with Josephus.

Charles Wilson
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Re: The woman with the hemorrhage: a political story?

Post by Charles Wilson » Fri Jul 15, 2016 12:38 pm

Thank you Lena Einhorn and Iskander.

CW

FransJVermeiren
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Re: The woman with the hemorrhage: a political story?

Post by FransJVermeiren » Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:51 pm

iskander wrote:It is a very interesting focus on the impact of a religious reform movement on the political life of a community. It is said that war is the continuation of politics by other means and it could also be said that religion also plays a similar role in society; religious activity helps to create new political realities .

What could have the touching of the fringes meant for Jesus and the woman?

Your statement on religious reform movements, politics and war is utterly relevant for the period of the great revolt of the Jews against the Romans.

Mark 5: 27-28 only mentions Jesus’ garment, not the fringes. The immediate healing of the woman’s disease the moment she touches Jesus’ clothes might be explained politically as follows. What would have instantly healed the Jewish people in 66 CE? It could hardly be anything else than the throwing off of the Roman yoke. And what does Jesus have to do with this? My chronological research shows that Jesus was one of the leaders of the great rebellion of 66-70 CE, so he could easily be presented as a personification of the rebellion. Therefore the following sentence can be added to the political description in my first post: ‘When the revolt against the Romans broke out and liberty was proclaimed, the country immediately revived.’

iskander
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Re: The woman with the hemorrhage: a political story?

Post by iskander » Sat Jul 16, 2016 2:59 am

FransJVermeiren wrote:
iskander wrote:It is a very interesting focus on the impact of a religious reform movement on the political life of a community. It is said that war is the continuation of politics by other means and it could also be said that religion also plays a similar role in society; religious activity helps to create new political realities .

What could have the touching of the fringes meant for Jesus and the woman?

Your statement on religious reform movements, politics and war is utterly relevant for the period of the great revolt of the Jews against the Romans.

Mark 5: 27-28 only mentions Jesus’ garment, not the fringes. The immediate healing of the woman’s disease the moment she touches Jesus’ clothes might be explained politically as follows. What would have instantly healed the Jewish people in 66 CE? It could hardly be anything else than the throwing off of the Roman yoke. And what does Jesus have to do with this? My chronological research shows that Jesus was one of the leaders of the great rebellion of 66-70 CE, so he could easily be presented as a personification of the rebellion. Therefore the following sentence can be added to the political description in my first post: ‘When the revolt against the Romans broke out and liberty was proclaimed, the country immediately revived.’
Jesus as the leader of an armed rebellion is not a problem .
Jesus as Liberty leading the people, is fine : Liberté, égalité, fraternité

La Liberté ou la Mort
Image

Delacroix, Liberty Leading the People

iskander
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Re: The woman with the hemorrhage: a political story?

Post by iskander » Sat Jul 16, 2016 3:49 am

Charles Wilson wrote:Thank you Lena Einhorn and Iskander.

CW
Thank you Charles for your generous reply . The stories about faith healing became very popular and generated a sinister trade on relics; how to fight this enslaving farce is my reaction to these kind of stories , whichever the origin.

The traditional religious interpretation: What is a Relic?

"A relic is something connected with a saint or blessed, including a part of their body (e.g. hair or a piece of bone), their clothing, or an object that the person used or touched."
http://www.motherteresa.org/09_relics/relics.htm


If your interpretation is helping to clear the fog , fine with me.

iskander
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Re: The woman with the hemorrhage: a political story?

Post by iskander » Sun Jul 17, 2016 1:03 pm

toejam wrote:Seems a bit speculative to me.

Is Luke 1:48 about the Jewish nation? I think the maid-servant (δούλης) is just a reference to Mary.

Twelve is just a symbolic number for "some number of years" I suspect. Trying to pin it to Nero's reign is just coincidence.

The hemorrhaging woman story in each of the synoptic gospels is sandwiched in between the Jairus' daughter story, both stories essentially being about the necessity of faith in Jesus' healing abilities as a component of being healed. Both Jairus and the woman are healed by their faith. I think that's the point of the story. It's a classic religious taunt - You want to be healed?, you need faith first! And if you still don't get healed, just add more faith!!

I don't see much more to it than that.
Spot on!, toejam That is also my reading of Mark . The business selling this commodity will acquire wealth and also power over the ' electorate'.


The abuse is difficult to control:
"Naturally it was impossible for popular enthusiasm to be roused to so high a pitch in a matter which easily lent itself to error, fraud and greed of gain, without at least the occasional occurrence of many grave abuses..."
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12734a.htm


But it will not soil the ' authentic ' relics:
"In such an atmosphere of lawlessness doubtful relics came to abound."
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12734a.htm

FransJVermeiren
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Re: The woman with the hemorrhage: a political story?

Post by FransJVermeiren » Mon Jul 18, 2016 10:40 am

Lena Einhorn wrote:
Now, if these were the only parallels between the New Testament and Josephus that contain names associated with the Jewish rebellion against Rome, I would still not consider them particularly interesting or relevant. But they are not the only ones. In A Shift in Time I describe how these rebellion-related parallels appear again and again and again when one compares the New Testament with Josephus.
To Lena Einhorn

For me your observation that a lot of names in the New Testament refer to persons associated with the rebellion against Rome is the most elucidating element of your book. As the story of Jairus’s daughter is closely related to that of the woman with the hemorrhage, it is also of interest here.
I believe that Jairus’s little daughter (the diminutive as a term of endearment, so ‘beloved daughter’) can be seen as a symbol for the Jewish people just like the woman with the hemorrhage in this twin story. That Jairus’s beloved daughter – so Israel – is moribund points in the same direction. When we look for Jairus (or Jair) in Josephus’s ‘The Jewish War’, we meet this name only once, and not a the name of a person, but only as a patronym in the name of the rebellion leader Eleazar son of Jair, the commander of Masada from 66 CE up to the joint suicide of its defenders in 73 CE.

So we meet Israel here as the daughter of Jairus, and Eleazar the leader of Masada as his son. In the Old Testament there are examples of brothers who take vengeance for the abuse of their sister (e.g. 2 Samuel 13) and that might be the tenor here also. This illustrates that the Gospels have been written by the rebellious faction that provoked the war against the Romans.

I disagree with you that the Lazarus of the fourth Gospel is Lazarus son of Jairus. I have good arguments to think that John’s Lazarus is Eleazar son of Ananias, another prominent rebel leader. He was the one who provoked the war by refusing further offerings in favor of the Roman emperor in the Temple in 66 CE. Full elaboration of this item would lead too far here. Maybe I come back to this later.

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