The woman with the hemorrhage: a political story?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Post Reply
FransJVermeiren
Posts: 253
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2016 1:14 am
Contact:

The woman with the hemorrhage: a political story?

Post by FransJVermeiren » Thu Jul 14, 2016 1:31 am

In Antiquity nations and peoples were symbolized by women. There is proof of this in coins and other images. There are, for example, the well-known Roman ‘Iudea capta’ (Judea captured) coins minted by Vespasian from 71 CE onwards, showing a subjected and mourning woman under a palm tree, symbolizing Judea. Apart from the fragment under consideration here, a woman as symbol of the Jewish nation is mentioned in Luke 1: 48a ‘For He [God] has looked upon the humiliated station of His bondwoman.’ This verse is part of Mary’s speech which, together with Zachariah’s, expresses Luke’s messianistic liberation ideology. Because in Mark 5: 25-34 a woman plays the principal role, a political interpretation of this fragment might be possible. I have elaborated it as follows.

What elements do we discern in the first verses of this fragment? A: hemorrhage; B: a period of 12 years; C: suffering under many physicians; D: evolution to poverty; E: a downward spiral.
Ad A: The fragment speaks about a ‘flow of blood’ without further detail. The hemorrhage image may be a symbol for suffering or maltreatment. No concrete element(s) point(s) to a somatic problem, for example a gynaecological bleeding.
Ad B: In a literal reading nothing can be said about a 12 year period (except that it is a long one). In a political reading the most obvious 12-year period in that era is Nero’s rule until the beginning of the Jewish revolt (54-66 CE).
Ad C: In a literal reading ‘suffering under many physicians’ is quite a bizarre element. In a society without developed medicine many health problems may have remained uncured, but even then suffering from the treatment of different physicians is not to be expected. Why would the woman resort to medical overconsumption (which moreover seems to be a modern phenomenon), while the physicians are all making her health situation worse? In a political reading, combined with the years 54-66 CE, it is quite clear who these bad physicians are. They are the incompetent, greedy and harsh procurators Nero sent to Palestine in the years before the great revolt. Josephus describes their outrages in detail in his Jewish War.
Ad D: In a literal reading the evolution to poverty is a comprehensible detail because the doctor’s bills exceed the financial capacity of the patient. But this element is also a strong one in a political interpretation. The Jewish people has suffered for decades from the harsh Roman taxes, pushing a lot of people into poverty, and the greed of the Neronian procurators even increased the financial and social problems of broad segments of society.
Ad E: The downward political and social spiral in Palestine in the decades before the rebellion has been clearly depicted by Josephus. Rebellious activity rose together with social disintegration and widespread despair, culminating in the great rebellion of 66 CE.

My political reading of this fragment yields the following unveiled description of the political situation which caused the great revolt:
‘The Jewish people has suffered for 12 years under the Roman emperor Nero. While one would expect that governors take good care of their subjects, our people has suffered a lot from the successive incompetent and greedy procurators Nero sent to us. Our country has bleeded dry, poverty has been continuously increasing over the years. We all saw the rapid and steep decline of our country.’
As I did not read all literature on this fragment, maybe I only repeat an existent interpretation. If so, I would be glad to receive references to existing literature. If not, I am looking forward to your comments, objections and/or alternative explanations.

This hypothesis is based on my research, published as 'A Chronological Revision of the Origins of Christianity', and inspired by Lena Einhorn's 'A Shift in Time'.

Frans J. Vermeiren

User avatar
toejam
Posts: 754
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2014 1:35 am
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: The woman with the hemorrhage: a political story?

Post by toejam » Thu Jul 14, 2016 1:58 am

Seems a bit speculative to me.

Is Luke 1:48 about the Jewish nation? I think the maid-servant (δούλης) is just a reference to Mary.

Twelve is just a symbolic number for "some number of years" I suspect. Trying to pin it to Nero's reign is just coincidence.

The hemorrhaging woman story in each of the synoptic gospels is sandwiched in between the Jairus' daughter story, both stories essentially being about the necessity of faith in Jesus' healing abilities as a component of being healed. Both Jairus and the woman are healed by their faith. I think that's the point of the story. It's a classic religious taunt - You want to be healed?, you need faith first! And if you still don't get healed, just add more faith!!

I don't see much more to it than that.
My study list: https://www.facebook.com/notes/scott-bignell/judeo-christian-origins-bibliography/851830651507208

iskander
Posts: 2091
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:38 pm

Re: The woman with the hemorrhage: a political story?

Post by iskander » Thu Jul 14, 2016 2:21 am

It is a very interesting focus on the impact of a religious reform movement on the political life of a community. It is said that war is the continuation of politics by other means and it could also be said that religion also plays a similar role in society; religious activity helps to create new political realities .

What could have the touching of the fringes meant for Jesus and the woman?

Charles Wilson
Posts: 1548
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:13 am

Re: The woman with the hemorrhage: a political story?

Post by Charles Wilson » Thu Jul 14, 2016 7:44 am

Of course it's a Political Story!

Don't forget that Jairus' Daughter was 12 years old. If there happened to be a single date given, speculation could allow almost any Symbolic Meaning to attach. Here, two Stories reference 12 years.

Luke 2:36 - 37 (RSV):

[36] And there was a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phan'u-el, of the tribe of Asher; she was of a great age, having lived with her husband seven years from her virginity,
[37] and as a widow till she was eighty-four. She did not depart from the temple, worshiping with fasting and prayer night and day.

This, to me, is the most striking Time Marker. I believe that someone Knew Something and was able to get some very interesting information into these several verses. This is about Queen Salome. Not "Salome Alexandra". "Salome".

The "Woman Bent Over for 18 Years" matches Herod finishing the Cloisters and opening up the Temple on the anniversary of his ascension. You celebrate God and Herod on this day. The woman is released from her worship of Herod.

"The Old Man by the Pool" in GJohn 5: 5:
"[5] One man was there, who had been ill for thirty-eight years..."

The alignment of all of these Markers is 12 years after the Temple Slaughter of 4 BCE. There is one Time Marker in Luke that does not align. The reason that these Markers align is that Mishmarot Service will find the same Service Group on Duty for the same week every six years. Bilgah and Immer are on Passover Duty in both 4 BCE and 9 CE.

Mark 5: 22 - 24 (RSV):

[22] Then came one of the rulers of the synagogue, Ja'irus by name; and seeing him, he fell at his feet,
[23] and besought him, saying, "My little daughter is at the point of death. Come and lay your hands on her, so that she may be made well, and live."
[24] And he went with him.
...
[35] While he was still speaking, there came from the ruler's house some who said, "Your daughter is dead. Why trouble the Teacher any further?"
[36] But ignoring what they said, Jesus said to the ruler of the synagogue, "Do not fear, only believe."
[37] And he allowed no one to follow him except Peter and James and John the brother of James.
[38] When they came to the house of the ruler of the synagogue, he saw a tumult, and people weeping and wailing loudly.
[39] And when he had entered, he said to them, "Why do you make a tumult and weep? The child is not dead but sleeping."
[40] And they laughed at him. But he put them all outside, and took the child's father and mother and those who were with him, and went in where the child was.
[41] Taking her by the hand he said to her, "Tal'itha cu'mi"; which means, "Little girl, I say to you, arise."
[42] And immediately the girl got up and walked (she was twelve years of age), and they were immediately overcome with amazement.

This is a Political Movement. In 4 BCE a Coup is about to succeed. The Herodians and Romans are about to be thrown out. The Priests of Immer are the Instigators of this Coup. At Passover, they will act and when their Service Week begins on the Sabbath three days later they will Re-Institute God's Rule with a High Priest of "Greater Piety and Purity". They will Re-Dedicate the Temple. Herod dies a week or so too soon, allowing a Counter-Revolution to proclaim Archelaus as Ruler. 3000 die and Passover is cancelled. The Nation is Unclean.

The movement is nearly dead 12 years later. It is the person who is given to us as Jairus who asks a Priest who survived by a "Miracle", to try one last time. The Priest goes to his death.

This is the Political Story. It was written by those who had knowledge of Jewish History and Mishmarot, perhaps followers of Zakkai and others who were allowed to live by Vespasian. The Law and the Prophets lasted until John. Why? Even a Story such as this will be rewritten. The end of the trail is John. What follows is the creation of a savior/god who will proclaim Rome. "When you see..." Jerusalem surrounded by armies and etc., know that the Messiah is at hand. That would be Titus and the ascension of the Flavians.

Our esteemed Poster Adam has started a Thread or 2 with a good comment by MichaelBG. Adam wants to show that John was real. As close as he can come to differentiating between a work of fiction that appears real and a real person, he will succeed. He will succeed because there was a List of Settlements matched with the Priestly Courses found in several Sites which have been excavated Archaeologically. They are there, in Galilee. Real. Immer comes from the Settlement Jabnit. Immer believes that the Hasmoneans came from them.

John is of Bilgah. The character who became the savior/god was of Immer. It may have been Peter or the Priest Peter saved in 4 BCE.

CW

User avatar
Giuseppe
Posts: 8146
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: The woman with the hemorrhage: a political story?

Post by Giuseppe » Thu Jul 14, 2016 11:52 am

Hi Frans,
Your point about the bad physicians is interesting. If we accept this interpretation by Parvus on Vridar (google: Mark as Allegory part 16):
If Mark is a Pauline allegory its fifth chapter contains a good candidate for the circumcision controversy: the paired healings of the woman who had bled for twelve years and of the dying twelve year old daughter of a leader of a synagogue (Mk. 5:21-42). By means of Mark’s sandwiching technique and the several parallels he establishes between the two healings Mark shows that he wants them understood as a composite. Touching is an element in both: The synagogue leader asks Jesus to lay his hands on the dying girl (5:23), and Jesus does grasp the child’s hands (5:41); in the case of the bleeding woman, her touching of Jesus’ clothes is referred to four times (verses 27, 28, 30 and 31). And both “daughters” (5:23 and 34) are “saved” (5:23 and 34) by faith (5:34 and 36). In regard to their common number twelve, Mary Ann Tolbert says “it is very tempting to note that the only use of twelve prior to their appearance” (in these healings) “is related to the disciples, the Twelve” (Sowing the Gospel, p. 168, n. 58).

Now it strikes me that this Markan episode easily lends itself to the kind of allegorical interpretation Paul gave to the slave and free women in Galatians. Something along the lines of: “Now this is an allegory. The dying daughter of the leader of a synagogue corresponds to the Twelves’ mission to the Jews. That mission died or nearly died (after 70 CE?). The woman who had bled for twelve years corresponds to the Gentile mission. She is portrayed as bleeding because the Twelve were insisting that Gentile converts be circumcised. Jesus’ action in saving the bleeding woman by faith prefigures Paul’s preaching of salvation by faith and his refusal to allow his Gentile converts to be circumcised. And Jesus’ raising back to life of the daughter of the synagogue leader prefigures Paul’s ultimate saving of the mission to the Jews.”

One could perhaps attach allegorical significance to other details in the story. For example, the woman “spent all she had, yet was no better, but had become worse” (Mk. 5:26). Was the “spending” a reference to Gentile collections for the Jerusalem church. I don’t know. But I think Richard Carrier is right when he says that “The integration of these tales obviously had some symbolic importance to Mark, even if we cannot discern it now” (On the Historicity of Jesus, p. 411). In light of the other Pauline parallels in Mark, I suggest that the symbolic importance was most likely related to Paul.
then the "bad physicians" may be just the false messianists "according to flesh", as the Egyptian.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Lena Einhorn
Posts: 166
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2016 1:15 pm

Re: The woman with the hemorrhage: a political story?

Post by Lena Einhorn » Thu Jul 14, 2016 1:44 pm

I agree, the story must be political, sandwiched in, as it is, between the verses about the raising of the daughter of Jairus. The most fascinating aspect of this is that all three raisings of the dead performed by Jesus contain names associated with rebel leaders during the Jewish War. If one collapses the raisings of the daughter of Jairus (found in three Gospels) and the raising of Lazarus (Eleazar in Hebrew; found in the fourth Gospel), then the name of the person raised becomes Eleazar son of Jairus. This was the name of the last rebel leader of the war, leader of the hold-out on Masada. The third raising of the dead is the son of the widow's son at Nain. Nain was a small village, which by Josephus is mentioned only in one context: Simon bar Giora, the last rebel leader to surrender Jerusalem, in the earlier part of the war made the little village of Nain his base.
Interpreted in this light, what is risen from the dead is the Jewish rebellion against Rome. And the twelve years of suffering are either -- as Frans suggests -- the period between Nero and the war, or -- as I suggest in my book A Shift in Time -- between the death of Agrippa I and the arrival of "the Egyptian" (whom I suggest is identical to Jesus).

User avatar
Secret Alias
Posts: 12552
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: The woman with the hemorrhage: a political story?

Post by Secret Alias » Thu Jul 14, 2016 1:56 pm

I am not so sure that you can read so much into this. It's like finding a phone number in your wife's pocket and punching the first guy you see and accusing him of having an affair with your wife. There are so many possibilities here.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

iskander
Posts: 2091
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:38 pm

Re: The woman with the hemorrhage: a political story?

Post by iskander » Thu Jul 14, 2016 2:23 pm

Charles Wilson wrote:Of course it's a Political Story!

Don't forget that Jairus' Daughter was 12 years old. If there happened to be a single date given, speculation could allow almost any Symbolic Meaning to attach. Here, two Stories reference 12 years.

Luke 2:36 - 37 (RSV):

[36] And there was a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phan'u-el, of the tribe of Asher; she was of a great age, having lived with her husband seven years from her virginity,
[37] and as a widow till she was eighty-four. She did not depart from the temple, worshiping with fasting and prayer night and day.

This, to me, is the most striking Time Marker. I believe that someone Knew Something and was able to get some very interesting information into these several verses. This is about Queen Salome. Not "Salome Alexandra". "Salome".

The "Woman Bent Over for 18 Years" matches Herod finishing the Cloisters and opening up the Temple on the anniversary of his ascension. You celebrate God and Herod on this day. The woman is released from her worship of Herod.

"The Old Man by the Pool" in GJohn 5: 5:
"[5] One man was there, who had been ill for thirty-eight years..."

The alignment of all of these Markers is 12 years after the Temple Slaughter of 4 BCE. There is one Time Marker in Luke that does not align. The reason that these Markers align is that Mishmarot Service will find the same Service Group on Duty for the same week every six years. Bilgah and Immer are on Passover Duty in both 4 BCE and 9 CE.

Mark 5: 22 - 24 (RSV):

[22] Then came one of the rulers of the synagogue, Ja'irus by name; and seeing him, he fell at his feet,
[23] and besought him, saying, "My little daughter is at the point of death. Come and lay your hands on her, so that she may be made well, and live."
[24] And he went with him.
...
[35] While he was still speaking, there came from the ruler's house some who said, "Your daughter is dead. Why trouble the Teacher any further?"
[36] But ignoring what they said, Jesus said to the ruler of the synagogue, "Do not fear, only believe."
[37] And he allowed no one to follow him except Peter and James and John the brother of James.
[38] When they came to the house of the ruler of the synagogue, he saw a tumult, and people weeping and wailing loudly.
[39] And when he had entered, he said to them, "Why do you make a tumult and weep? The child is not dead but sleeping."
[40] And they laughed at him. But he put them all outside, and took the child's father and mother and those who were with him, and went in where the child was.
[41] Taking her by the hand he said to her, "Tal'itha cu'mi"; which means, "Little girl, I say to you, arise."
[42] And immediately the girl got up and walked (she was twelve years of age), and they were immediately overcome with amazement.

This is a Political Movement. In 4 BCE a Coup is about to succeed. The Herodians and Romans are about to be thrown out. The Priests of Immer are the Instigators of this Coup. At Passover, they will act and when their Service Week begins on the Sabbath three days later they will Re-Institute God's Rule with a High Priest of "Greater Piety and Purity". They will Re-Dedicate the Temple. Herod dies a week or so too soon, allowing a Counter-Revolution to proclaim Archelaus as Ruler. 3000 die and Passover is cancelled. The Nation is Unclean.

The movement is nearly dead 12 years later. It is the person who is given to us as Jairus who asks a Priest who survived by a "Miracle", to try one last time. The Priest goes to his death.

This is the Political Story. It was written by those who had knowledge of Jewish History and Mishmarot, perhaps followers of Zakkai and others who were allowed to live by Vespasian. The Law and the Prophets lasted until John. Why? Even a Story such as this will be rewritten. The end of the trail is John. What follows is the creation of a savior/god who will proclaim Rome. "When you see..." Jerusalem surrounded by armies and etc., know that the Messiah is at hand. That would be Titus and the ascension of the Flavians.

Our esteemed Poster Adam has started a Thread or 2 with a good comment by MichaelBG. Adam wants to show that John was real. As close as he can come to differentiating between a work of fiction that appears real and a real person, he will succeed. He will succeed because there was a List of Settlements matched with the Priestly Courses found in several Sites which have been excavated Archaeologically. They are there, in Galilee. Real. Immer comes from the Settlement Jabnit. Immer believes that the Hasmoneans came from them.

John is of Bilgah. The character who became the savior/god was of Immer. It may have been Peter or the Priest Peter saved in 4 BCE.

CW
Charles Wilson wrote:This is a Political Movement. In 4 BCE a Coup is about to succeed. The Herodians and Romans are about to be thrown out. The Priests of Immer are the Instigators of this Coup. At Passover, they will act and when their Service Week begins on the Sabbath three days later they will Re-Institute God's Rule with a High Priest of "Greater Piety and Purity". They will Re-Dedicate the Temple. Herod dies a week or so too soon, allowing a Counter-Revolution to proclaim Archelaus as Ruler. 3000 die and Passover is cancelled. The Nation is Unclean.

Very interesting Charles, thank you
Who cancelled Passover?

Charles Wilson
Posts: 1548
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:13 am

Re: The woman with the hemorrhage: a political story?

Post by Charles Wilson » Thu Jul 14, 2016 7:20 pm

To Lena --

1 Chronicles 24: Partial (RSV):

[1] The divisions of the sons of Aaron were these. The sons of Aaron: Nadab, Abi'hu, Elea'zar, and Ith'amar.
[2] But Nadab and Abi'hu died before their father, and had no children, so Elea'zar and Ith'amar became the priests.
[3] With the help of Zadok of the sons of Elea'zar, and Ahim'elech of the sons of Ith'amar, David organized them according to the appointed duties in their service.
[4] Since more chief men were found among the sons of Elea'zar than among the sons of Ith'amar, they organized them under sixteen heads of fathers' houses of the sons of Elea'zar, and eight of the sons of Ith'amar.
...
[7] The first lot fell to Jehoi'arib, the second to Jedai'ah,
...
[14] the fifteenth to Bilgah, the sixteenth to Immer...

I invite you to look Critically at this Section. The Hasmoneans are given a Place in Jehoiarib, the first Mishmarot Group. There are other Orders of the Priesthood Names given which may imply that the Hasmoneans reordered the Groups to give them a Leading Role. The fifteenth and sixteenth of the Groups are Bilgah and Immer. Immer is the last of the House of Eleazar and you are correct about "Lazarus". What you may not realize is that there is a word play between "Lamb" and "Immer", a word-play found in the Hebrew but, no surprise, not in the Greek. Without the diacriticals - a 4th or 5th century invention for Hebrew - the Hebrew word for "Lamb" and "Immer" is/are the same - " אמּר ".

Pettinato and Falkenberg looked at Ebla and names found there and found Names such as " 'Nmmr-Ha'ad" which is rendered as "Panther-of-Ha'ad", which may have come to us as "Nimrod". So, "Immar-Yah" would be "Lamb-of-Yah" which becomes "Marya" => "Lord". The Hebrew word-plays are apparent and those looking for Sources have a lot on their plate. The puns are less hidden in GJohn but Markan Chiasms provide a rich environment to look at after the translations into Greek.
Lena wrote:If one collapses the raisings of the daughter of Jairus (found in three Gospels) and the raising of Lazarus (Eleazar in Hebrew; found in the fourth Gospel), then the name of the person raised becomes Eleazar son of Jairus
You are onto something that may require a new Post. Later.
***
Thank you Iskander.

Josephus, Antiquities..., 17, 9, 3:

"Now Archelaus thought there was no way to preserve the entire government but by cutting off those who made this attempt upon it; so he sent out the whole army upon them, and sent the horsemen to prevent those that had their tents without the temple from assisting those that were within the temple, and to kill such as ran away from the footmen when they thought themselves out of danger; which horsemen slew three thousand men, while the rest went to the neighboring mountains. Then did Archelaus order proclamation to be made to them all, that they should retire to their own homes; so they went away, and left the festival, out of fear of somewhat worse which would follow, although they had been so bold by reason of their want of instruction..."

Wars..., 2, 1, 3:

"At these the whole multitude were irritated, and threw stones at many of the soldiers, and killed them; but the tribune fled away wounded, and had much ado to escape so. After which they betook themselves to their sacrifices, as if they had done no mischief; nor did it appear to Archelaus that the multitude could be restrained without bloodshed; so he sent his whole army upon them, the footmen in great multitudes, by the way of the city, and the horsemen by the way of the plain, who, falling upon them on the sudden, as they were offering their sacrifices, destroyed about three thousand of them; but the rest of the multitude were dispersed upon the adjoining mountains: these were followed by Archelaus's heralds, who commanded every one to retire to their own homes, whither they all went, and left the festival..."

Who performs sacrifices in the Temple? This is all about the Mishmarot Priesthood and it has been hidden to this day.

CW

Charles Wilson
Posts: 1548
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:13 am

Re: The woman with the hemorrhage: a political story?

Post by Charles Wilson » Thu Jul 14, 2016 11:18 pm

iskander wrote:What could have the touching of the fringes meant for Jesus and the woman?
Continuing with the Assumption of Symbolism made so far, if the Woman represents the Unclean Nation, then the Fringe of the Garment would be from some Robe worn by a Priest, which fits the Symbolic Character perfectly.
Only the Priesthood, which represents the Nation to God at the Altar, can make her clean:

Leviticus 15: 25 - 31 (RSV):

[25] "If a woman has a discharge of blood for many days, not at the time of her impurity, or if she has a discharge beyond the time of her impurity, all the days of the discharge she shall continue in uncleanness; as in the days of her impurity, she shall be unclean.
[26] Every bed on which she lies, all the days of her discharge, shall be to her as the bed of her impurity; and everything on which she sits shall be unclean, as in the uncleanness of her impurity.
[27] And whoever touches these things shall be unclean, and shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the evening.
[28] But if she is cleansed of her discharge, she shall count for herself seven days, and after that she shall be clean.
[29] And on the eighth day she shall take two turtledoves or two young pigeons, and bring them to the priest, to the door of the tent of meeting.
[30] And the priest shall offer one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering; and the priest shall make atonement for her before the LORD for her unclean discharge.
[31] "Thus you shall keep the people of Israel separate from their uncleanness, lest they die in their uncleanness by defiling my tabernacle that is in their midst."

"Thus you shall keep the people of Israel separate from their uncleanness, lest they die in their uncleanness by defiling my tabernacle that is in their midst."

Thus, if the Nation-as-Woman is Unclean, only the Priesthood may Intercede and make clean the Uncleanliness, lest the Tabernacle be Defiled.

Mark 6: 55 - 56 (RSV):

[55] and ran about the whole neighborhood and began to bring sick people on their pallets to any place where they heard he was.
[56] And wherever he came, in villages, cities, or country, they laid the sick in the market places, and besought him that they might touch even the fringe of his garment; and as many as touched it were made well.

This is not a savior/god. This is a Priest. The Story is about the Priesthood. Even this, however, may be rewritten, as it was. "Priesthood? Wasn't that Done Away?..."

CW

Post Reply