Archaeological Evidence of pre-Constantinian Christianity

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Leucius Charinus
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Archaeological Evidence of pre-Constantinian Christianity

Post by Leucius Charinus »

Kapyong wrote:
[*]Myth 7 - Archeology confirms the Gospels

Kapyong
Even Tim O'Neil in his typically scathing rant review of this book here goes very quietly into a super-rant against mythicists rather than deal with the reality of next-to-zero archaeological evidence.
Tim O'Neil wrote:
He pauses in his brief chapter on archaeology and, in a weak attempt to make this chapter vaguely relevant to his main argument, writes:

At the risk of being redundant, we should remember that there has never been a trace of physical archaeological evidence for Jesus, despite centuries of infamous hoaxes such as the Shroud of Turin (p. 108)

Again, that the faithful have clung to pious hoaxes and that the gullible still fall for fake artefacts is not remotely relevant to Fitzgerald's thesis. And "there has never been a trace of physical archaeological evidence" for most people who have existed in human history, particularly if they were poor and lived in a backwater. For Fitzgerald to think that the lack of any such evidence for Jesus tells us something about whether he existed or not makes him about as clueless as the Shroud believers.
Let's look at the archaeology ....

(1) The Cross: this does not appear until the 4th century when Constantine's mother finds the One True Cross in downtown Jerusalem.
(2) The Name of Jesus: does not appear in the ancient world or in the Bibles or its fragments. All that appears is a code "IS".
(3) The Name of Christ: does not appear in the ancient world or in the Bibles or its fragments. All that appears is a code "XP".
(4) The first evidence of the expansion of the "XP" code is not to "CHRIST" but to "CHREST". See this thread
(5.1) The first complete Greek Bibles: these do not appear in the evidence until - according to DOGMATIC TRADITION & not C14 - the 4th and 5th century
(5.2) The fragments of the Greek Bibles: these have been dated ONLY early by means of the subjective art of palaeography. (No C14 testing)
(6) Christian Churches: No Christian church before the 4th century has ever been found. Period. End of story. (I wonder why?)
(6) Christian Church-Houses: No Christian church-house before the 4th century has ever been found. Period. End of story. (I wonder why?)
(6) Christian House-Churches: One sole exemplar of a Christian house-church before the 4th century has been claimed to have existed not at Rome, Alexandria or Antioch but way out on the Persian border, in Manichaean territory, at Dura-Europos. It is very suspect, having been identified as such by "ARTISTIC INTERPRETATION".
(7) Inscriptions: The name of Jesus in the Bible is a code "IS" and the name of Christ is a code "XP" - very simple reproducible two-letter motifs. Why are they not found scattered on headstones in the 1st or 2nd or 3rd centuries of the common era? Why did no Christian inscribe the name of their two-letter god anywhere?
(8) COINS: The CHI-RHO first appears on Imperial coinage c.316 CE under the rule of Constantine. Again, this need not have been "CHRIST" but "CHREST".
(9) ART: Emperor centric renditions of Christ appear in the 4th century and continue for centuries
(10) GRAFITTI: The Alexandros Grafitti does not necessarily depict Jesus since thousand and thousands of people were crucified by the Romans. In the very early 2nd century the Roman Emperor Trajan publically crucified 2000 Jews of the city of Emmaus.
(11) FIGURINES: The earliest crucifix with a person on it is from the 6th century. The 6th century. Six is not equal to one or two or three etc. Thousands of figurines to hundreds of gods have been found by archaeologists, and/or described by travellers (like Pausanius) but nobody has found one for Jesus.
(12) This list is endless. We have no archaeology for Jesus or his supposed Christian church until the very late. Why is it so?
Last edited by Leucius Charinus on Sat Dec 07, 2013 5:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nailed: 10 Christian myths that show Jesus never existed

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Peter Kirby wrote:
Leucius Charinus wrote:We have no archaeology for Jesus or his supposed Christian church until the very late. Why is it so?
Because you have mangled your understanding of the data due to some (frankly weird) idea that accepting the historical existence of a second or third century Christian church will give you cooties, make you a traditionalist, bring Jesus into your heart, etc. It's your own personal ick factor that has launched your quixotic crusade.
If you think this is the case then present some data to discuss to support the case in an evidence based manner for the existence of an early church independent of Eusebius, IN WHOM WE DO NOT TRUST. There are two evidence issues which have bogged down discussion in the past: (1) the Dura-Europos "house-church" [the lone exemplar of Christian archaeology] and (2) the "Theological Palaeographical Attestations". I do not accept either of these evidence collections as either "certain" or "unambiguous" in this matter, while others here obviously do. Setting these aside, what other evidence do you think supports the mainstream hypothesis?

My finding is that we have been conditioned to accept as true the hypothesis that we have plenty of evidence for the early church, which therefore unquestionably must have existed. But when we go out and actually examine the evidence items being discussed in contemporary sources, these evidence items are far from being satisfactorily certain. I am not asking you to believe me at all - all I am asking is that you find some data to present for discussion. I have done much leg work already.

If you are at a loss to cite any other evidence then I suggest you have a look through the series of notes I have made from various sources in order to answer the question: Where is the the archeological evidence for pre-Nicene christianity?? Perhaps you should commence with the assertions and evidence presented in Graydon Snyder's Ante Pacem: archaeological evidence of church life before Constantine


Finally, contrary to what some or even MANY people may think of my approach, I do not see any harm in this approach of the hard evidence itself, and I see it as far more productive and scholarly than a continuous discussion of Stephan Hullers misogynous sex life (but he and others may disagree).

Graydon Snyder wrote:"The real founders of the science of early Christian archaeology came in the 19th century:
Giuseppe Marchi (1795-1860) and Giovanni de Rossi (1822-1894)...[the latter] published
between 1857 and 1861 the first volume of "Inscriptiones christianae urbis Romae". Pope
Pius IX moved beyond collecting by appointing in 1852 a commission - "Commissione de
archaelogia sacra" - that would be responsible for all early Christian remains."
How has the 19th century Catholic church contributed to our knowledge in this field?
Well, for a start Giovanni de Rossi has earned a reputation as a forger of Christian relics.
A number of very iffy items have been crossed off the list presented in the first volume of "Inscriptiones christianae urbis Romae".
Pious forgery is not yet dead. Just ask Oded.
A "cobbler of fables" [Augustine]; "Leucius is the disciple of the devil" [Decretum Gelasianum]; and his books "should be utterly swept away and burned" [Pope Leo I]; they are the "source and mother of all heresy" [Photius]
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Archaeological Evidence of pre-Constantinian Christianity

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Leucius Charinus wrote:If you think this is the case then present some data to discuss
Okay.

http://www.papyrology.ox.ac.uk/POxy/VEx ... stian.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papyrus_Oxyrhynchus_3035
http://papyri.info/ddbdp/p.oxy;43;3119
http://books.google.com/books?id=w59JAA ... li&f=false
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POxy_1464
http://religion.princeton.edu/main/facu ... 20JECS.pdf
https://archive.org/stream/greeklatin00 ... 2/mode/2up
http://books.google.com/books?id=nPVHbS ... 90&f=false
http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Tyndale/st ... OxyPap.htm
http://books.google.com/books?id=nPVHbS ... 04&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=gsoFMT ... 22&f=false
http://people.uncw.edu/zervosg/papyrolo ... misuse.pdf
http://books.google.com/books?id=oWyej_ ... 22&f=false
https://www.academia.edu/1135088/Grenfe ... d_Straight
https://www.academia.edu/3667498/Early_ ... laeography
http://larryhurtado.wordpress.com/2013/ ... -analysis/
http://evangelicaltextualcriticism.blog ... sment.html
http://vridar.org/2013/03/08/new-date-f ... pyrus-p52/
http://www.biblical-data.org/P-46%20Oct%201997.pdf
http://www.pappal.info/
http://www.mountainman.com.au/essenes/article_071.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxyrhynchus_Papyri
http://theosophical.wordpress.com/2011/ ... us-papyri/
http://www.mountainman.com.au/essenes/C ... ospels.htm
http://www.mountainman.com.au/essenes/e ... _habit.htm
http://books.google.com/books?id=0-ovhY ... es&f=false
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/enc ... ffito.html
http://www.textexcavation.com/alexamenos.html
http://www.mountainman.com.au/essenes/article_072.htm
https://www.academia.edu/1619001/New_Te ... Baptistery
http://books.google.com/books?id=swtI9C ... em&f=false
http://brbl-legacy.library.yale.edu/pap ... d=DPg%2024
http://www.mountainman.com.au/essenes/article_073.htm
http://www.mountainman.com.au/essenes/article_074.htm
http://books.google.com/books?id=CNHgAM ... ry&f=false
http://diglib.library.vanderbilt.edu/ac ... l?RC=54382
https://archive.org/stream/christianepi ... 0/mode/2up
https://www.academia.edu/4295346/Radioc ... us_in_Rome
https://www.academia.edu/4299091/Furthe ... us_in_Rome
https://archive.org/stream/monumentsofe ... 6/mode/2up
http://books.google.com/books?id=PWdzlU ... 22&f=false
https://www.academia.edu/2702572/A_Seco ... Via_Latina
http://books.google.com/books?id=vOoxGm ... na&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=56AN2e ... os&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=lXpGAA ... os&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=3XxxkE ... sm&f=false
https://www.academia.edu/1992190/Late_A ... _Augustine
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/etd/d/2008/to ... m58633.pdf
http://earlychristianwritings.com/info/ ... graphy.pdf
http://books.google.com/books?id=j2dAY4 ... us&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=93mfDk ... 22&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=CNHgAM ... on&f=false
http://grbs.library.duke.edu/article/do ... 8411/4747‎
http://www.ascsa.edu.gr/pdf/uploads/hesperia/147076.pdf
https://www.google.com/search?q=christi ... 3&ie=UTF-8
http://mama.csad.ox.ac.uk/monuments/MAMA-XI-082.html
http://mama.csad.ox.ac.uk/monuments/MAMA-XI-044.html
http://mama.csad.ox.ac.uk/monuments/MAMA-XI-085.html
http://mama.csad.ox.ac.uk/monuments/MAMA-XI-122.html
http://mama.csad.ox.ac.uk/monuments/MAMA-XI-095.html
http://mama.csad.ox.ac.uk/monuments/MAMA-XI-164.html

Most strikingly, the dated Oxyrhynchus papyri and the inscriptions from Phyrgia establish the existence of third century Chrestians/Christians/Chreistians. Also telling are Dura Europos, the catacombs of Callixtus, the inscription of Abercius, the Alexamenos Graffito, and the epitaph of Julius Eugenius. Likewise, of course, paleographical evidence for the otherwise undated papyri.
Leucius Charinus wrote:There are two evidence issues which have bogged down discussion in the past
Oh, evidence. You always spoil the fun. Can't you just go away and let masturbatory discussion of the Constantinian invention of Christianity commence?
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Re: Archaeological Evidence of pre-Constantinian Christianit

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Crucify him! Crucify him!
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Re: Archaeological Evidence of pre-Constantinian Christianit

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stephan happy huller wrote:Crucify him! Crucify him!
Am I hearing the above set to the Musical: Jesus Christ Superstar? :lol:
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Re: Archaeological Evidence of pre-Constantinian Christianit

Post by stephan happy huller »

I just settle for an agonizing end to his tyranny at this forum. As the resident Jew (aside from his nitwit Sancho Panza) it would be fitting to give me these lines if this forum was a musical.
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Re: Archaeological Evidence of pre-Constantinian Christianit

Post by Huon »

Leucius Charinus wrote:
Let's look at the archaeology ....

(1) The Cross: this does not appear until the 4th century when Constantine's mother finds the One True Cross in downtown Jerusalem.
(2) The Name of Jesus: does not appear in the ancient world or in the Bibles or its fragments. All that appears is a code "IS".
(3) The Name of Christ: does not appear in the ancient world or in the Bibles or its fragments. All that appears is a code "XP".
(4) The first evidence of the expansion of the "XP" code is not to "CHRIST" but to "CHREST". See this thread
(5.1) The first complete Greek Bibles: these do not appear in the evidence until - according to DOGMATIC TRADITION & not C14 - the 4th and 5th century
(5.2) The fragments of the Greek Bibles: these have been dated ONLY early by means of the subjective art of palaeography. (No C14 testing)
(6) Christian Churches: No Christian church before the 4th century has ever been found. Period. End of story. (I wonder why?)
(6) Christian Church-Houses: No Christian church-house before the 4th century has ever been found. Period. End of story. (I wonder why?)
(6) Christian House-Churches: One sole exemplar of a Christian house-church before the 4th century has been claimed to have existed not at Rome, Alexandria or Antioch but way out on the Persian border, in Manichaean territory, at Dura-Europos. It is very suspect, having been identified as such by "ARTISTIC INTERPRETATION".
(7) Inscriptions: The name of Jesus in the Bible is a code "IS" and the name of Christ is a code "XP" - very simple reproducible two-letter motifs. Why are they not found scattered on headstones in the 1st or 2nd or 3rd centuries of the common era? Why did no Christian inscribe the name of their two-letter god anywhere?
(8) COINS: The CHI-RHO first appears on Imperial coinage c.316 CE under the rule of Constantine. Again, this need not have been "CHRIST" but "CHREST".
(9) ART: Emperor centric renditions of Christ appear in the 4th century and continue for centuries
(10) GRAFITTI: The Alexandros Grafitti does not necessarily depict Jesus since thousand and thousands of people were crucified by the Romans. In the very early 2nd century the Roman Emperor Trajan publically crucified 2000 Jews of the city of Emmaus.
(11) FIGURINES: The earliest crucifix with a person on it is from the 6th century. The 6th century. Six is not equal to one or two or three etc. Thousands of figurines to hundreds of gods have been found by archaeologists, and/or described by travellers (like Pausanius) but nobody has found one for Jesus.
(12) This list is endless. We have no archaeology for Jesus or his supposed Christian church until the very late. Why is it so?
The supposition that archaeology will bring out the oldest traces of a religion at the moment of its beginning, here in the 1st or 2nd century for christianity, is only a pious hope.
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Re: Archaeological Evidence of pre-Constantinian Christianit

Post by Peter Kirby »

I've organized the links and added some more, for those interested in such things:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=129
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Re: Archaeological Evidence of pre-Constantinian Christianit

Post by Peter Kirby »

"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
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Re: Archaeological Evidence of pre-Constantinian Christianit

Post by stephan happy huller »

Very well done. I wonder what this meant in one of the Latin inscriptions "quitquit"
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