Naked with Jesus = Apostleship

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Secret Alias
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Re: Naked with Jesus = Apostleship

Post by Secret Alias »

But why is everything already settled for you? How do you know it's a red herring or a white herring? Everything for you is settled. You act as if we know all that we need to know to pass final judgments on things when in reality we know very little. Again that's not a sign that you are more advanced than the rest of the forum but rather that you are mentally retarded.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
outhouse
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Re: Naked with Jesus = Apostleship

Post by outhouse »

Giuseppe wrote:The parable of the sower may help.

Mark 4:
[
“Listen! A farmer went out to plant his seed. 4 He scattered the seed on the ground. Some fell on a path. Birds came and ate it up. 5 Some seed fell on rocky places, where there wasn’t much soil. The plants came up quickly, because the soil wasn’t deep. 6 When the sun came up, it burned the plants. They dried up because they had no roots. 7 Other seed fell among thorns. The thorns grew up and crowded out the plants. So the plants did not bear grain. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil. It grew up and produced a crop 30, 60, or even 100 times more than the farmer planted

''to be naked'' would be equivalent to be 'on good soil', lacking of birds, rocky places, thorns.

1) But the ''birds'' are allegory of Satan (the people possessed by evil spirits, met by Jesus on his path). They don't recognize Jesus even if freed and healed.

2) the ''rocky places'' are allegory of Peter (hence of the Twelwe). They don't recognize Jesus even if insiders.

3) The ''thorns'' are allegory of materialistic need and kata sarka goals (the crown of thorns put by Romans on Jesus is symbol of political power), hence of the young ruler. They don't follow Jesus even if they recognize him.

You have the context all screwed up on what the author was actually trying to posit.


This has to do with how Christianity can flourish even with low life types, peasants. fishermen, publicans, and that like a weed, it will not easily be removed from A FIELD.

HAS nothing to with Stephens garbage
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Naked with Jesus = Apostleship

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Secret Alias wrote:It would be nice to see that this opinion is based on facts related to the document ...
Agreed
Secret Alias wrote:rather than a selfish desire to use canonical Mark as the measure to all things merely because you invested a lot of time studying canonical Mark. But I won't hold my breath. The longer I live the less reason I see humanity as a whole deserving being spared from holocausts. Your love of canonical Mark is merely sublimated self-love.
Thanks for your facts :) as always strongly related to the document ;)
Secret Alias
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Re: Naked with Jesus = Apostleship

Post by Secret Alias »

If the shoe fits.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Naked with Jesus = Apostleship

Post by Secret Alias »

So leaving aside those who want to cling to canonical Mark as a jilted girl pines for her dishonest lover we return to the problem of Colossians 2:15.
Christ is made to strip off his human body, and that body is all but identified with the devilish powers https://books.google.com/books?id=Zs9GA ... 22&f=false
So the assumption seems to be that the body or the flesh = the worldly powers. Where does that come from exactly? Well clearly in various gnostic schools the angels made Adam after the image of the Perfect Man. The classic or earliest surviving preservation of this understanding is found in the Apocryphon of John:
And he said to the authorities which attend him, 'Come, let us create a man according to the image of God and according to our likeness, that his image may become a light for us.' And they created by means of their respective powers in correspondence with the characteristics which were given. And each authority supplied a characteristic in the form of the image which he had seen in its natural (form). He created a being according to the likeness of the first, perfect Man. And they said, 'Let us call him Adam, that his name may become a power of light for us.'

"And the powers began: the first one, goodness, created a bone-soul; and the second, foreknowledge, created a sinew-soul; the third, divinity, created a flesh-soul; and the fourth, the lordship, created a marrow-soul; the fifth, kingdom created a blood-soul; the sixth, envy, created a skin-soul; the seventh, understanding, created a hair-soul. And the multitude of the angels attended him and they received from the powers the seven substances of the natural (form) in order to create the proportions of the limbs and the proportion of the rump and the proper working together of each of the parts.

"The first one began to create the head. Eteraphaope-Abron created his head; Meniggesstroeth created the brain; Asterechme (created) the right eye; Thaspomocha, the left eye; Yeronumos, the right ear; Bissoum, the left ear; Akioreim, the nose; Banen-Ephroum, the lips; Amen, the teeth; Ibikan, the molars; Basiliademe, the tonsils; Achcha, the uvula; Adaban, the neck; Chaaman, the vertebrae; Dearcho, the throat; Tebar, the right shoulder; [...], the left shoulder; Mniarcon, the right elbow; [...], the left elbow; Abitrion, the right underarm; Evanthen, the left underarm; Krys, the right hand; Beluai, the left hand; Treneu, the fingers of the right hand; Balbel, the fingers of the left hand; Kriman, the nails of the hands; Astrops, the right breast; Barroph, the left breast; Baoum, the right shoulder joint; Ararim, the left shoulder joint; Areche, the belly; Phthave, the navel; Senaphim, the abdomen; Arachethopi, the right ribs; Zabedo, the left ribs; Barias, the right hip; Phnouth the left hip; Abenlenarchei, the marrow; Chnoumeninorin, the bones; Gesole, the stomach; Agromauna, the heart; Bano, the lungs; Sostrapal, the liver; Anesimalar, the spleen; Thopithro, the intestines; Biblo, the kidneys; Roeror, the sinews; Taphreo, the spine of the body; Ipouspoboba, the veins; Bineborin, the arteries; Atoimenpsephei, theirs are the breaths which are in all the limbs; Entholleia, all the flesh; Bedouk, the right buttock (?); Arabeei, the left penis; Eilo, the testicles; Sorma, the genitals; Gorma-Kaiochlabar, the right thigh; Nebrith, the left thigh; Pserem, the kidneys of the right leg; Asaklas, the left kidney; Ormaoth, the right leg; Emenun, the left leg; Knyx, the right shin-bone; Tupelon, the left shin-bone; Achiel, the right knee; Phnene, the left knee; Phiouthrom, the right foot; Boabel, its toes; Trachoun, the left foot; Phikna, its toes; Miamai, the nails of the feet; Labernioum - .

"And those who were appointed over all of these are: Zathoth, Armas, Kalila, Jabel, (Sabaoth, Cain, Abel). And those who are particularly active in the limbs (are) the head Diolimodraza, the neck Yammeax, the right shoulder Yakouib, the left shoulder Verton, the right hand Oudidi, the left one Arbao, the fingers of the right hand Lampno, the fingers of the left hand Leekaphar, the right breast Barbar, the left breast Imae, the chest Pisandriaptes, the right shoulder joint Koade, the left shoulder joint Odeor, the right ribs Asphixix, the left ribs Synogchouta, the belly Arouph, the womb Sabalo, the right thigh Charcharb, the left thigh Chthaon, all the genitals Bathinoth, the right leg Choux, the left leg Charcha, the right shin-bone Aroer, the left shin-bone Toechtha, the right knee Aol, the left knee Charaner, the right foot Bastan, its toes Archentechtha, the left foot Marephnounth, its toes Abrana.

"Seven have power over all of these: Michael, Ouriel, Asmenedas, Saphasatoel, Aarmouriam, Richram, Amiorps. And the ones who are in charge over the senses (are) Archendekta; and he who is in charge over the receptions (is) Deitharbathas; and he who is in charge over the imagination (is) Oummaa; and he who is over the composition Aachiaram, and he who is over the whole impulse Riaramnacho.

"And the origin of the demons which are in the whole body is determined to be four: heat, cold, wetness, and dryness. And the mother of all of them is matter. And he who reigns over the heat (is) Phloxopha; and he who reigns over the cold is Oroorrothos; and he who reigns over what is dry (is) Erimacho; and he who reigns over the wetness (is) Athuro. And the mother of all of these, Onorthochrasaei, stands in their midst, since she is illimitable, and she mixes with all of them. And she is truly matter, for they are nourished by her.

"The four chief demons are: Ephememphi, who belongs to pleasure, Yoko, who belongs to desire, Nenentophni, who belongs to grief, Blaomen, who belongs to fear. And the mother of them all is Aesthesis-Ouch-Epi-Ptoe. And from the four demons passions came forth. And from grief (came) envy, jealousy, distress, trouble, pain, callousness, anxiety, mourning, etc. And from pleasure much wickedness arises, and empty pride, and similar things. And from desire (comes) anger, wrath, and bitterness, and bitter passion, and unsatedness, and similar things. And from fear (comes) dread, fawning, agony, and shame. All of these are like useful things as well as evil things. But the insight into their true (character) is Anaro, who is the head of the material soul, for it belongs with the seven senses, Ouch-Epi-Ptoe.

"This is the number of the angels: together they are 365. They all worked on it until, limb for limb, the natural and the material body was completed by them. Now there are other ones in charge over the remaining passions whom I did not mention to you. But if you wish to know them, it is written in the book of Zoroaster. And all the angels and demons worked until they had constructed the natural body. And their product was completely inactive and motionless for a long time
But the Marcionite understanding is surely a lot simpler than this. We have to go back to his understanding of matter. Ephraem is deliberately evasive but we can assume that the basic formulation is identical with the other gnostic systems: 'Marcion said concerning the holy one[?] that he saw a certain image; and we shall not speak of these other things that follow' (PR1. 69, 45–70,2) In other words the image was Christ and Adam was made in his likeness out of matter.

But what about the idea of 'stripping off' the flesh? I think McGowan gets close to the right answer when he suggests that there is a consistent pattern within Marcionism and other early strands of Christianity that material things are seen to be the property of the ruler of this world - a concept not entirely divorced from the Roman hegemony. https://www.academia.edu/905877/Marcion ... f_Creation To this end, the 'powers' made Adam out of one substance - hyle - but Jesus is preparing his initiates for the coming of a new kingdom by refashioning them out of another heavenly substance.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Naked with Jesus = Apostleship

Post by Secret Alias »

And back to the discussion of Colossians. The passage from the Dialogue of the Savior from Nag Hammadi puts things in their proper context:
Judas said to Matthew, "We want to understand the sort of garments we are to be clothed with when we depart the decay of the flesh."
The Lord said, "The governors and the administrators possess garments granted only for a time, which do not last. But you, as children of truth, not with these transitory garments are you to clothe ourselves. Rather, I say to you that you will become blessed when you strip yourselves! For it is no great thing [...] outside."
The odd thing about the gospel of course is that Jesus is not portrayed as baptizing anyone. So why is there all this symbolism of undressing and dressing in Paul and elsewhere if baptism has nothing to do with the ministry of Jesus? It is an odd situation to say the least. But of course people will never admit we have been given counterfeit gospels quite deliberately.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Naked with Jesus = Apostleship

Post by Secret Alias »

And this now goes to the heart of the inherited understanding of Paul. According to our inherited assumptions Paul did not know the written gospel. As such when Paul makes reference to 'unclothing' and '(re)clothing' it is an allusion to something outside of the gospel. Perhaps it was from personal experience. We just don't know.

But don't people see what they are doing here? According to this stupid worldview Christianity is allowed to exist without a written gospel. This is the underlying assumption here. For most mythicists even those at this forum the issue of whether the Marcionites were correct in understanding Paul to have written a gospel is a distraction from the 'real issues' of mythicism. What are those issues? Whatever nonsense one of these mythicists posted to their blog or wrote in a book read only by des moches.

The reality is that if we focus our attention on the ancient question of Jesus being a supernatural being and leave to the side the modern reaction to historicism (= 'mythicism') we will have a much more meaningful discussion. For the Marcionite paradigm denies historicism an important assumption which is that Christianity could exist without a written gospel. Once you posit Marcionism as the oldest form of Christianity there isn't clear cut evidence that Jesus or any of the characters in the gospel had a 'real life' outside of the written page. I hope one day that sinks into minds of people like Neil Godfrey.

So getting back to the point here. If we discipline ourselves to take what we might call a 'neo-Marcionite' position the whole business of dressing and undressing (and hence ritual 'nudity') necessarily is likely to have a basis in the gospel. Why so? Well the Marcionites hailed Paul not only as the apostle but the author of the first gospel. What sense would it make for Paul to be hailed as the one who had 'all knowledge' (Adv Haer 2.14 - 15 etc) if that knowledge was not related to the gospel?

The idea that Paul wrote the gospel AND emphasized a whole bunch of other experiences or knowledge OUTSIDE of the gospel (his visit to the butcher, his time in heaven etc) is highly unlikely. Paul said this or that in the epistles because this or that is related to the gospel which he wrote. It can be no other way given the manner in which Marcionites extolled both Paul and his gospel. If Paul wrote about other experiences, we must acknowledge, the Marcionites wouldn't have extolled the gospel in the way they did. It would be a cult of 'the life and the acts of Paul' rather than what is apparent from the Church Fathers - a Pauline literary cult.

Now mythicists can if they want take this one step further and say that Jesus then was just a character in Paul's literary creation. There is no longer 'eyewitnesses' or anything or anyone else. But more importantly for our purposes here we can safely assume that Paul wouldn't have said X or Y if it wasn't in his gospel because of the manner in which the Marcionites argued (i.e. stressing the gospel as the measure of all things). To this end, of course we must stand up to the objection that the dressing and undressing theme in Paul doesn't find any counterpart in any surviving gospel. In fact most of the themes in Paul aren't found in the canonical gospels. What are we to make of that?

For some, the lack of explicit reference to the gospel in Paul disproves the theory of a relationship. Yet the correct answer must surely be that the editing of the canonical gospels (i.e. what was retained and what was removed) was decided on the basis of whether it 'proved' Marcionism - that is the relationship that Marcionites said existed between Paul the author of the gospel and Paul the author of the Pauline epistles. So to this end Mark 14:52 allows for a 'nude' narrative but as Andrew Criddle rightly notes the strange reference in the Philosophumena to Marcion and the the gospel of Mark assumes that Mark is related to the Latin term murcus (= deserter).

According to Criddle ho kolobodaktulos is "probably a translation into Greek of the Latin murcus literally stunted docked mutilated but used as a colloquial term for those who cut off their thumbs to avoid conscription in the Roman army." But isn't the likely root of this story the naked incident in the gospel of Mark? Surely most of the world today thinks Mark is the naked youth. The Coptic tradition, the tradition of Mark, is only the most vocal proponents of this understanding. The naked youth runs away or deserts Jesus in canonical Mark. But the earliest reference to Mark 14:51 - 52 is Epiphanius in the late fourth century. Clement of Alexandria's allusion to the Secret Mark naked narrative is much, much earlier.

The question then becomes is the naked youth a symbol of 'desertion' (based on a Latin play on words related to the name Mark) or 'apostle' developed from Aramaic.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Naked with Jesus = Apostleship

Post by Secret Alias »

Jerome (drawing on Philo and other sources) on ritual nudity and Christianity Epistle 64:

About the linen undergarments they are accustomed to say: the cause of seeds and generation to flesh pertaining to earth is imputed to it — whence God spoke to Adam: you are the earth and you will go back to it [Gen.3:19] — and the causes of this thing, how from a small seed and foul beginnings so much beauty of men or different things is born, is covered and does not appear to human eyes. We read in Leviticus that Moses washed Aaron and his sons according to god’s precept: already the purgation of the world and the holiness of all things were a sign of the sacraments of baptism. They do not accept robes unless first the dirt is washed off nor are new men reborn unless they are adorned to sacredness in Christ; for new wine is not put into new skins. That Moses washes is a sign of the law: “they have Moses and the prophets, let them hear them” [Luke 16:29], and from Adam to Moses everyone sinned. We should be washed by the precepts of god and when, prepared for the clothing of Christ, we have put off our skin tunics, then we shall be clothed in the linen robe, which has mothing of death in it, but is all white so that rising from baptism we can gird our loins in truth and all the deformity of our former sins will be hidden. Whence David: “blessed those whose iniquities are forgiven and whose sins are covered” [Ps.31:1].
20. After the undergarment and the linen tunic, we are clothed in the blue vestment and we begin to ascend from earthly things to high things. This blue tunic — called hypodutes [Grk], that is shirt, by the Septuagint — is proper to the high priest, signifying that the highest causes are not open to all, but to the greater and the perfect. The prophets had this, Moses and Aaron and all to whom it is said: “ascend the highest mountain, you who bring news to Zion” [Isa.40:9]. Nor is it sufficient for us to have ablution of prior sins, grace of baptism, more secret doctrine, unless we have works. Whence the ephod, the superhumeral, is joined, which is connected to the breastplate so that not lax or dissolute they may cling to and help each other. Reason needs works and works need reason so that what we conceive in the mind, we can carry out in the deed/work. The two stones containing the names in the superhumeral signify either Christ and the church of twelve apostles, who were sent to preach, or the letter and the spirit in which all the mysteries of the law are contained: in the right, the spirit, in the left, the letter; by letters we get to words, by words, we come to the sense. How beautiful is the order, showing the sacraments from the same dress! Works are on the shoulders, reason in the breast; whence priests eat the little breast.
The breastplate however is double, open and hidden, simple and mystical, having twelve stones and four rows, which I think are the four virtues: prudence, fortitude, justice, temperance, which adhere to each other and as they mix together attain the number twelve, or the four gospels which are described in the Apocalypse, filled with eyes and radiating the light of the lord, they illumine the world, four in one and each in the four; whence delosis and aletheia, that is doctrine and truth, are in the breast of the priest. For when one is clothed with the multiple robe, truth follows, which is retained in the heart to bring forth in speech. And therefore, there is truth in the breastplate, learning, so that he might know what is to be taught, and clear revealing, and doctrine, so that he might instruct others what the mind has conceived. Where are they who say the innocence of the priest can be sufficient? The old law agrees with the new: Moses with the apostle. One adorns the learning of the priest in his robes, the other instructs Timothy and Titus in teaching. But particularly the order of the vestments. Let us read Leviticus: not the breastplate first, then the superhumeral, but first the superhumeral, then the breastplate. “From your commands,” he says, “I have understood” [Ps.118:104]: first we act, thus we teach, lest the authority of teaching be destroyed by empty works. This is what we read in the prophet: “sow for yourselves in justice and reap the fruit of life” [Hos.10:12] “illuminate for yourselves the light of learning.” First sow in justice and reap the fruit of eternal life, then claim learning for yourself. Perfection is not immediately achieved, if one has the superhumeral and the breastplate, unless these are strengthened with a strong joining and are connected together so that works cling to reason and reason to works and doctrine and truth follow with them preceding.
21. If there were time to discuss the natures and causes of each, I would expound to you the four elements, about which we spoke above, and the two stones, either onyx or emerald, and the twelve jewels which are on the breastplate, and what value each has and how they compare in individual virtues/powers — holy pope Epiphanius produced an outstanding volume on this from which if you wished to read it you would obtain very full knowledge; I understand that I exceed the measure of a letter and I see that the wax is full; whence I move on to the rest, so the oration can be ended. The gold plate glows on the forehead; for erudition in all things is no advantage to us unless we are crowned with the knowledge of god. We are clothed in linen, adorned with blue, girded with the consecrated belt, works are given to us, the breastplate is set on the chest: we receive truth, speech gives out doctrine; all things are imperfect unless the worthy driver is sought with the handsome chariot and the creator pressing his creatures rules what he formed. What in the past was shown in the plate, is now a sign of the cross. The blood of the gospel is more preicous than the gold of the law. Then the sign was fixed on the forehead according to the laments of Ezekiel, now we say, carrying the cross: “the light of your face is a sign over us, lord” [Ps.4:7].
Twice in Exodus with the lord ordering and Moses following his command we read the eight kinds of dress of the highpriest. In Leviticus, only seven are written about and it is related how Moses dressed his brother Aaron in them: nothing is said here only about the undergarments because, I assume, the law does not set its hand to our genitals and shameful things, but we should cover and veil our secrets with worthy shame and preserve the consciense of purity and seeds of judgment for god. About the other virtues, wisdom by grace of the word, fortitude, justice, humility, kindness, generosity, others can judge: only conscience knows modesty and human eyes can not be sure judges of this thing except those which are exposed at random to desire in the manner of brute animals. Whence the apostle says: “about virgins I do not have the lord’s command” [1Cor.7:25], as if Moses said: “I do not wear undergarments nor impose the necessity for them on anyone; who wishes to be a priest, let him dress himself.” O how many virgins and the hoped for modesty of how many will be dishonored on judgment day, the ill-reputed modesty of how many will be crowned by god the judge! Let us assume the undergarments for ourselves, let us deal with our own shame, let us not seek foreign eyes. Let the genitalia be covered so that they are revealed to no one’s eyes, lest if some foulness should appear when we enter the holy of holies we might die.
22. Already the discourse is finished and I am brought back to higher things. The learning and erudition of god’s high priest should be such that his going out and movements are all resounding. Let him conceive truth with his mind and sound it with all his dress and adornment so that whatever he does, whatever he says, may be doctrine for the people. For without bells and different colors and jewels and flowers of virtues one can not enter holy things nor have the name of bishop. I dictated this with swift speech in one night’s work when the rope was already loosed from the shore and the sailors calling out repeatedly, what I could hold in my memory and what I collected from my long reading in the breastplate of my breast, understanding more in the impetus of me speaking than flowed to the judgment of the one writing and bringing out turbid speech like a torrent. A book about the seven garments of Aaron is mentioned in the index of Septimus Tertullianus, which I have not so far found. If you should find it within the multitude of the city, I ask you not to compare my drop to that river. For it must be valued not by the talents of great men, but by my own strengths.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Naked with Jesus = Apostleship

Post by Secret Alias »

I find this particularly important in trying to tie the Pauline mystical interest in nakedness. The Naked State of Human Being: The Meaning of Gymnos in 2 Corinthians 5:3 by Luis Ivan Martinez Toledo
In each case using this combination of particles, the protasis (conditional element) comes after the apodosis (result or consequence). in this specific case, the apodosis is to be clothed-over (ἐπενδύσασθαι) but without being unclothed (ἐκδύσασθα) adds in clause III. The condition (protasis), then, is to be found clothed, which means not naked. despite the desire of Paul, the fact is that he shows here the two possibilities: (a) to be found naked, after being unclothed, and (b) to be found clothed, with the temporal house, which is the apodosis in the conditional. Then, if naked, he will be just clothed with the heavenly dwelling; but if clothed he can be clothed-over, which he rather prefers. The explanation is in clause iii. Paul, repeating the groan-desire element, says that if the clothing-over experience comes and he is not unclothed (death), death will be swallowed up by life (ὑπὸ followed by genitive case). Therefore, if to be clothed-over means to be clothed-over means to be clothed without being unclothed (naked), and if clothed-over means transformation, then nakedness refers to death. This conclusion agrees with the context and the background as was shown. To be clothed means to be alive and to be unclothed or naked means to be dead. The idea of resurrection, which was the consolation of Paul in 4:14, is presented again in 5:1. god is the one who will raise the dead, but he has to find them dead in order to resurrect them. if they are not dead, then resurrection is not needed, only transformation. Gymnos entails the idea of resurrection. figure 11 summarizes graphically the relationship between clothed, clothed over, and the possibility to be found naked.

[figure 11]

A literary comparison with 1 Cor 15:37. Paul also uses the image of gymnos to death in 1 Cor 15:37. it speaks about the state of the grain at the moment it is being sowed. Paul says “You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies, and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare (gymnon,) grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else” (15:36, 37). Paul explains the process of germination of the new plant paralleling apothanēi, “to die,” with gymnon, as he parallels zōiopoieitai, “to come to life,” with sōma τὸ genēsomenon, “the body which is to be.” figure 12 shows this comparison it is easy to notice that the meaning of gymnos in this context of 1 Cor 15:37 is also death clearly.

Considering the language of Paul, the previous state (before the sowing) could be the same of the state after, at least in the example of grain. So in order to avoid confusion, he adds immediately other examples to express the difference in nature of the body after resurrection. 2 Cor 5:3 has the same context; Paul contrasts the present earthly body under afflictions with the heavenly body after the resurrection. There is another stage between these two stages in case of the first possibility, nakedness, which is introduced in the parenthesis of 5:3 and explained in 5:4. in contrast to resurrection, to be clothed-over skips the state of death (nakedness), if the condition of to be found clothed, but no naked is given (5:3).
My question would be - what does the author imagine is the context of this 'naked' talk? Surely one possibility is that it is rooted in the gospel of Paul known to the heretics including the Marcionites. Again we read:
And they come into Bethany. And a certain woman whose brother had died was there. And, coming, she prostrated herself before Jesus and says to him, 'Son of David, have mercy on me.' But the disciples rebuked her. And Jesus, being angered, went off with her into the garden where the tomb was, and straightway a great cry was heard from the tomb. And going near, Jesus rolled away the stone from the door of the tomb. And straightaway, going in where the youth was, he stretched forth his hand and raised him, seizing his hand. But the youth, looking upon him, loved him and began to beseech him that he might be with him. And going out of the tomb, they came into the house of the youth, for he was rich. And after six days Jesus told him what to do, and in the evening the youth comes to him, wearing a linen cloth over his naked body. And he remained with him that night, for Jesus taught him the mystery of the Kingdom of God. And thence, arising, he returned to the other side of the Jordan.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Naked with Jesus = Apostleship

Post by Secret Alias »

Interestingly the complicated wording of 2 Corinthians 5:3 is absent in the Peshitta:
For we know that if our earthly house slips away (נשתרא), we still have a building made by God, a house not made with hands, eternal in heaven. And on account of this also we groan, earnestly longing to use our house (ביתן) which is in heaven. If not so, even when we are clothed (דלבשן), we will still be naked (ערטל)
The same word ערטל is used in Mark 14:51 - 52. Compare that with the Greek:
For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.. For in this tent we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked (εἴ γε καὶ ἐνδυσάμενοι οὐ γυμνοὶ εὑρεθησόμεθα)
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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