Naked with Jesus = Apostleship

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Secret Alias
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Re: Naked with Jesus = Apostleship

Post by Secret Alias »

What's interesting about the Peshitta Colossians 2:15 is that ובשלח פגרה (and stripping his body naked) at the beginning of the sentence stands in the place that ἐν αὐτῷ (in him) does in the Greek at the end of the sentence. I think this omission is deeply significant as it provides a context for Paul becoming an apostle (owing to the presence of the root שלח which is at the heart of 'naked' and 'apostle').
Last edited by Secret Alias on Sun May 22, 2016 8:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Naked with Jesus = Apostleship

Post by Secret Alias »

Another clue a little later in the same text - strip naked (שולחוהי) the old man with all his practices (Colossians 3:9). Morton Smith identified only identified the Pauline 'baptism into death' as a parallel in Secret Mark. Yet this is much better. The idea seems to be that the dead youth (Paul) is understood to have stripped naked to symbolize the 'old Man' and in some form he puts on the 'New Man' Jesus after presumably being baptized. He is then 'the apostle' presumably as are all who follow this ritualized 'strip routine.' Again in Aramaic to strip (naked) = to send off (= the apostle).
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Naked with Jesus = Apostleship

Post by Secret Alias »

Seen from the perspective of Secret Mark and a relationship with the Syriac recension of the Pauline epistles it is interesting to observe that there is absolutely no consistency in the Greek terminology for 'stripping' off the body. Notice Col 2:11 ἐν τῇ ἀπεκδύσει τοῦ σώματος = in the putting off of the body. In Syriac = "in the stripping off (בשלח) of the body." It's as if the Paul the stripper = Paul the apostle motif was deliberately supressed.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Naked with Jesus = Apostleship

Post by Secret Alias »

The context of Colossian 2:11 is also interesting. In Greek:

Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead

In Syriac:

And in him ye are also perfect, because he is the head of all principalities and authorities. In whom also you are circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in stripping naked (בשלח) the sinful flesh (בסרא דחטהא) in the circumcision of Christ (בגזורתה דמשיחא) and you have been buried (ואתקברתון) with in baptism (במעמודיתא), and in him have risen with him, who have believed in the power of God who raised him from among the dead
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Naked with Jesus = Apostleship

Post by Secret Alias »

Of course there is a variant that ignored by scholarship. Of course! So here is the variant. Speaking against the Carpocratians (*cough cough*) he declares

It is impossible to harmonize the view that the supreme good consists in pleasure with the view that beauty of character is the only good: This is seen only in the Lord, God alone is good and the sole fit object of love. "You have been circumcised in Christ with a circumcision not performed with hands in stripping yourselves of your fleshly body, that is, in Christ’s circumcision. So if you are risen together with Christ, look for the things above, fix your mind on them, not on earthly things. For you are dead, and your life has been buried in God together with Christ" – this hardly applies to the sexual immorality which they practice! "So mortify your earthly members – fornication, filthiness, passion, lust; through these the visitation of anger is on its way." So they too should put away "anger, temper, vice, slander, dirty talk from their mouths, stripping themselves of the old human nature with its lusts and putting on the new human nature, which is renewed for full knowledge in accordance with the likeness of its creator." [Strom 3.43.3]

οὐδὲ γὰρ συνᾴδειν ποτὲ δύναται τὸ ἀγαθὸν εἶναι τὴν ἡδονὴν τῷ μόνον εἶναι τὸ καλὸν ἀγαθὸν ἢ καὶ μόνον καλὸν τὸν κύριον καὶ μόνον ἀγαθὸν τὸν θεὸν καὶ μόνον ἐραστόν. ἐν Χριστῷ δὲ περιετμήθητε περιτομῇ ἀχειροποιήτῳ ἐν τῇ ἀπεκδύσει τοῦ σώματος τῆς σαρκός, ἐν τῇ περιτομῇ τοῦ Χριστοῦ. εἰ οὖν συνηγέρθητε τῷ Χριστῷ, τὰ ἄνω ζητεῖτε, τὰ ἄνω φρονεῖτε, μὴ τὰ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς. ἀπεθάνετε γάρ, καὶ ἡ ζωὴ ὑμῶν κέκρυπται σὺν τῷ Χριστῷ ἐν τῷ θεῷ, οὐχὶ δὲ πορνεία ἣν ἀσκοῦσιν. νεκρώσατε οὖν τὰ μέλη τὰ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, πορνείαν, ἀκαθαρσίαν, πάθος, ἐπιθυμίαν, δι' ἃ ἔρχεται ἡ ὀργή. ἀποθέσθωσαν οὖν καὶ αὐτοὶ ὀργήν, θυμόν, κακίαν, βλασφημίαν, αἰσχρολογίαν ἐκ τοῦ στόματος αὐτῶν, ἀπεκδυσάμενοι τὸν παλαιὸν ἄνθρωπον σὺν ταῖς ἐπιθυμίαις, καὶ ἐνδυσάμενοι τὸν νέον τὸν ἀνακαινούμενον εἰς ἐπίγνωσιν κατ' εἰκόνα τοῦ κτίσαντος αὐτόν.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Naked with Jesus = Apostleship

Post by Secret Alias »

Let's start to compare the Clementine citation of Paul:
You have been circumcised in Christ with a circumcision not performed with hands in stripping yourselves of your fleshly body, that is, in Christ’s circumcision

ἐν Χριστῷ δὲ περιετμήθητε περιτομῇ ἀχειροποιήτῳ ἐν τῇ ἀπεκδύσει τοῦ σώματος τῆς σαρκός, ἐν τῇ περιτομῇ τοῦ Χριστοῦ (Clement)

ἐν ᾧ καὶ περιετμήθητε περιτομῇ ἀχειροποιήτῳ ἐν τῇ ἀπεκδύσει τοῦ σώματος τῆς σαρκός, ἐν τῇ περιτομῇ τοῦ Χριστοῦ (our received text)
Then we read in Clement's Pauline text:
So if you are risen together with Christ, look for the things above, fix your mind on them, not on earthly things.

εἰ οὖν συνηγέρθητε τῷ Χριστῷ, τὰ ἄνω ζητεῖτε, τὰ ἄνω φρονεῖτε, μὴ τὰ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς. (Clement)
(our received text inserts the following added words "having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead. When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you[d] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind. 19 They have lost connection with the head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow. 20 Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules: 21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 22 These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.)

But even when we rejoin the text in our received edition of Paul there are differences:
So if you are risen together with Christ, look for the things above, fix your mind on them, not on earthly things.

εἰ οὖν συνηγέρθητε τῷ Χριστῷ, τὰ ἄνω ζητεῖτε, τὰ ἄνω φρονεῖτε, μὴ τὰ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς. (Clement)

Εἰ οὖν συνηγέρθητε τῷ Χριστῷ, τὰ ἄνω ζητεῖτε, οὗ ὁ Χριστός ἐστιν ἐν δεξιᾷ τοῦ Θεοῦ καθήμενος. τὰ ἄνω φρονεῖτε, μὴ τὰ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς. (received text)

Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things.
Notice that our text adds the falsified words 'where Christ is, seated at the right hand.' We can begin to suspect that the Marcionite version also failed to reference this subordination of Christ to one 'seated beside God.' This is an Irenaean interest.

Have to go run a soccer game ...
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Naked with Jesus = Apostleship

Post by Secret Alias »

And then this follows in both our texts:
ἀπεθάνετε γάρ, καὶ ἡ ζωὴ ὑμῶν κέκρυπται σὺν τῷ Χριστῷ ἐν τῷ θεῷ (Clement's text)

For you are dead, and your life has been with Christ in God

ἀπεθάνετε γάρ, καὶ ἡ ζωὴ ὑμῶν κέκρυπται σὺν τῷ χριστῷ ἐν τῷ θεῷ· (received text)
Interestingly though, as with Secret Mark, Clement declares against the Carpocratians "this hardly applies to the sexual immorality which they practice." With respect to the gospel we read "But "naked man with naked man" and the other things about which you wrote, are not found" and before that "he got from him a copy of the secret Gospel, which he both interpreted according to his blasphemous and carnal doctrine and, moreover, polluted, mixing with the spotless and holy words utterly shameless lies. From this mixture is withdrawn off the teaching of the Carpocratians."

Getting back to the differences between our text of Colossians and Clement's, our text adds words in what follows next. In Clement's copy of Colossians we read:
νεκρώσατε οὖν τὰ μέλη τὰ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, πορνείαν, ἀκαθαρσίαν, πάθος, ἐπιθυμίαν, δι' ἃ ἔρχεται ἡ ὀργή. (Clement's text)

So mortify your earthly members – fornication, filthiness, passion, lust; through these the visitation of anger is on its way

ὅταν ὁ Χριστὸς φανερωθῇ, ἡ ζωὴ ὑμῶν*, τότε καὶ ὑμεῖς σὺν αὐτῷ φανερωθήσεσθε ἐν δόξῃ. Νεκρώσατε οὖν τὰ μέλη τὰ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, πορνείαν, ἀκαθαρσίαν, πάθος, ἐπιθυμίαν κακήν, καὶ τὴν πλεονεξίαν ἥτις ἐστὶν εἰδωλολατρία, δι’ ἃ ἔρχεται ἡ ὀργὴ τοῦ Θεοῦ· ‹ἐπὶ τοὺς υἱοὺς τῆς ἀπειθείας› ἐν οἷς καὶ ὑμεῖς περιεπατήσατέ ποτε, ὅτε ἐζῆτε ἐν τούτοις· (received text)

When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived.
Once again we see our text has been expanded in a predictable manner. Our text speaks of Christ coming in the future rather than already having visited the members in a ritualized setting. Moreover in a manner parallel with the Marcionites 'desire' as such is bad; there is no distinguishing between good and bad desires. Clement's (no less than Marcion's) text does not assume that Paul directed his message at Gentiles who were former idolaters. Most significantly though we see a close parallel where our text assumes that God has wrath. In Clement's and Marcion's text it is emphasized that there is a wrath but it is not 'God's wrath.' Compare the (apparent) Marcionite reading of Romans 1:18 " " the wrath [of God] is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness." (Tertullian Against Marcion 5.13)
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Naked with Jesus = Apostleship

Post by Secret Alias »

And finally Clement begins by paraphrasing the section which immediately follows:
ἀποθέσθωσαν οὖν καὶ αὐτοὶ ὀργήν, θυμόν, κακίαν, βλασφημίαν, αἰσχρολογίαν ἐκ τοῦ στόματος αὐτῶν, ἀπεκδυσάμενοι τὸν παλαιὸν ἄνθρωπον σὺν ταῖς ἐπιθυμίαις, καὶ ἐνδυσάμενοι τὸν νέον τὸν ἀνακαινούμενον εἰς ἐπίγνωσιν κατ' εἰκόνα τοῦ κτίσαντος αὐτόν (Clement's text)

So they too should put away "anger, temper, vice, slander, dirty talk from their mouths, stripping themselves of the old man with his lusts and putting on the new which is renewed for full knowledge in accordance with the likeness of its creator

νυνὶ δὲ ἀπόθεσθε καὶ ὑμεῖς τὰ πάντα, ὀργήν, θυμόν, κακίαν, βλασφημίαν, αἰσχρολογίαν ἐκ τοῦ στόματος ὑμῶν· μὴ ψεύδεσθε εἰς ἀλλήλους, ἀπεκδυσάμενοι τὸν παλαιὸν ἄνθρωπον σὺν ταῖς πράξεσιν αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἐνδυσάμενοι τὸν νέον τὸν ἀνακαινούμενον εἰς ἐπίγνωσιν κατ’ εἰκόνα τοῦ κτίσαντος αὐτόν, ὅπου οὐκ ἔνι Ἕλλην καὶ Ἰουδαῖος, περιτομὴ καὶ ἀκροβυστία, βάρβαρος, Σκύθης, δοῦλος, ἐλεύθερος, ἀλλὰ ‹τὰ› πάντα καὶ ἐν πᾶσιν Χριστός. (received text)

But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old man with its practices and have put on the new man, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. 11 Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Naked with Jesus = Apostleship

Post by Secret Alias »

And as a postscript the ultimate proof that Clement's Pauline canon looked very different than our own is evidence by this other statement in Book 4 of the Stromata:

κἀν τῇ πρὸς Κολοσσαεῖς αἱ γυναῖκες φησίν, ὑποτάσσεσθε τοῖς ἀνδράσιν, ὡς ἀνήκει ἐν κυρίῳ. οἱ ἄνδρες, ἀγαπᾶτε τὰς γυναῖκας καὶ μὴ πικραίνεσθε πρὸς αὐτάς. τὰ τέκνα, ὑπακούετε τοῖς γονεῦσι κατὰ πάντα· τοῦτο γὰρ εὐάρεστον τῷ κυρίῳ. οἱ πατέρες, μὴ ἐρεθίζετε τὰ τέκνα ὑμῶν, ἵνα μὴ ἀθυμῶσιν. οἱ δοῦλοι, ὑπακούετε κατὰ πάντα τοῖς κατὰ σάρκα κυρίοις, μὴ ἐν ὀφθαλμοδουλείαις ὡς ἀνθρωπάρεσκοι, ἀλλ' ἐν ἁπλότητι καρδίας φοβούμενοι τὸν κύριον. καὶ πᾶν ὃ ἐὰν ποιῆτε, ἐκ ψυχῆς ἐργάζεσθε ὡς τῷ κυρίῳ δουλεύοντες καὶ οὐκ ἀνθρώποις, εἰδότες ὅτι ἀπὸ κυρίου ἀπολήψεσθε τὴν ἀνταπόδοσιν τῆς κληρονομίας. τῷ γὰρ κυρίῳ Χριστῷ δουλεύετε· ὁ γὰρ ἄδικος κομίσεται ὃ ἠδίκησεν, καὶ οὐκ ἔστι προσωποληψία. οἱ κύριοι, τὸ δίκαιον καὶ τὴν ἰσότητα τοῖς δούλοις παρέχετε, εἰδότες ὅτι καὶ ὑμεῖς ἔχετε κύριον ἐν οὐρανῷ, ὅπου οὐκ ἔνι Ἕλλην καὶ Ἰουδαῖος, περιτομὴ καὶ ἀκροβυστία, βάρβαρος, Σκύθης, δοῦλος, ἐλεύθερος, ἀλλὰ πάντα καὶ ἐν πᾶσι Χριστός. εἰκὼν δὲ τῆς οὐρανίου ἐκκλησίας ἡ ἐπίγειος, ὅπερ εὐχόμεθα καὶ ἐπὶ γῆς γενέσθαι τὸ θέλημα τοῦ θεοῦ ὡς ἐν οὐρανῷ· ἐνδυσάμενοι σπλάγχνα οἰκτιρμοῦ, χρηστότητα, ταπεινοφροσύνην, πραότητα, μακροθυμίαν, ἀνεχόμενοι ἀλλήλων καὶ χαριζόμενοι ἑαυτοῖς, ἐάν τις πρός τινα ἔχῃμομφήν· καθὼς καὶ ὁ Χριστὸς ἐχαρίσατο ἡμῖν, οὕτως καὶ ἡμεῖς. ἐπὶ πᾶσι δὲ τούτοις ἡ ἀγάπη, ὅ ἐστι σύνδεσμος τῆς τελειότητος. καὶ ἡ εἰρήνη τοῦ Χριστοῦ βραβευέτω ἐν ταῖς καρδίαις ὑμῶν, εἰς ἣν καὶ ἐκλήθητε ἐν ἑνὶ σώματι·

And in that to the Colossians it is said, "Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands, as is fit in the Lord. Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them. Children, obey your parents in all things; for this is well pleasing to the Lord. Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged. Servants, be obedient in all things to those who are your masters according to the flesh; not with eye-service, as men-pleasers; but with singleness of heart, fearing the Lord. And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as serving the Lord and not men; knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. For the wrongdoer shall receive the Wrong, which he hath done; and there is no respect of persons. Masters, render to your servants justice and equity; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven, where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bond, free: but Christ is all, and in all. Putting on, therefore, bowels of mercy, gentleness, humbleness, meekness, long-suffering; forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if one have a quarrel against any man; as also Christ hath forgiven us, so also let us. And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which ye are called in one body; and be thankful.


But the passage in Colossians 3 actually reads:

ὅπου οὐκ ἔνι Ἕλλην καὶ Ἰουδαῖος, περιτομὴ καὶ ἀκροβυστία, βάρβαρος, Σκύθης, δοῦλος, ἐλεύθερος, ἀλλὰ ‹τὰ› πάντα καὶ ἐν πᾶσιν Χριστός. Ἐνδύσασθε οὖν, ὡς ἐκλεκτοὶ τοῦ Θεοῦ ἅγιοι καὶ ἠγαπημένοι, σπλάγχνα οἰκτιρμοῦ, χρηστότητα, ταπεινοφροσύνην, πραΰτητα, μακροθυμίαν, ἀνεχόμενοι ἀλλήλων καὶ χαριζόμενοι ἑαυτοῖς, ἐάν τις πρός τινα ἔχῃ μομφήν· καθὼς καὶ ὁ Κύριος ἐχαρίσατο ὑμῖν οὕτως καὶ ὑμεῖς· ἐπὶ πᾶσιν δὲ τούτοις τὴν ἀγάπην, ὅ ἐστιν σύνδεσμος τῆς τελειότητος.

καὶ ἡ εἰρήνη τοῦ Χριστοῦ βραβευέτω ἐν ταῖς καρδίαις ὑμῶν, εἰς ἣν καὶ ἐκλήθητε ἐν ἑνὶ σώματι·
καὶ εὐχάριστοι γίνεσθε. ὁ λόγος τοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐνοικείτω ἐν ὑμῖν πλουσίως, ἐν πάσῃ σοφίᾳ· διδάσκοντες καὶ νουθετοῦντες ἑαυτοὺς, ψαλμοῖς ὕμνοις ᾠδαῖς πνευματικαῖς ἐν τῇ χάριτι ᾄδοντες ἐν ταῖς καρδίαις ὑμῶν τῷ Θεῷ· καὶ πᾶν ὅ τι ἐὰν ποιῆτε ἐν λόγῳ ἢ ἐν ἔργῳ, πάντα ἐν ὀνόματι Κυρίου Ἰησοῦ, εὐχαριστοῦντες τῷ Θεῷ Πατρὶ δι’ αὐτοῦ.

Αἱ γυναῖκες, ὑποτάσσεσθε τοῖς ἀνδράσιν, ὡς ἀνῆκεν ἐν Κυρίῳ. Οἱ ἄνδρες, ἀγαπᾶτε τὰς γυναῖκας καὶ μὴ πικραίνεσθε πρὸς αὐτάς. Τὰ τέκνα, ὑπακούετε τοῖς γονεῦσιν κατὰ πάντα, τοῦτο γὰρ εὐάρεστόν ἐστιν ἐν Κυρίῳ. Οἱ πατέρες, μὴ ἐρεθίζετε τὰ τέκνα ὑμῶν, ἵνα μὴ ἀθυμῶσιν.
Οἱ δοῦλοι, ὑπακούετε κατὰ πάντα τοῖς κατὰ σάρκα κυρίοις, μὴ ἐν ὀφθαλμοδουλίαις, ὡς ἀνθρωπάρεσκοι, ἀλλ’ ἐν ἁπλότητι καρδίας φοβούμενοι τὸν Κύριον. ὃ ἐὰν ποιῆτε, ἐκ ψυχῆς ἐργάζεσθε ὡς τῷ Κυρίῳ καὶ οὐκ ἀνθρώποις, εἰδότες ὅτι ἀπὸ Κυρίου ἀπολήμψεσθε τὴν ἀνταπόδοσιν τῆς κληρονομίας. τῷ Κυρίῳ Χριστῷ δουλεύετε· ὁ γὰρ ἀδικῶν κομίσεται ὃ ἠδίκησεν, καὶ οὐκ ἔστιν προσωπολημψία.

Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all. Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13 Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14 And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. 16 Let the message of Christ dwell among you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom through psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit, singing to God with gratitude in your hearts. And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

Wives, submit yourselves to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them. Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord. Fathers,[c] do not embitter your children, or they will become discouraged. Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord. 23 Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, 24 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving. 25 Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for their wrongs, and there is no favoritism.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Naked with Jesus = Apostleship

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Solo wrote:
Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:.
First, a good indication could be possibly the wording
14:51 And a young man (νεανίσκος) followed him, with nothing but a linen cloth about his body. And they seized him, 52 but he left the linen cloth and ran away naked.
16:5 And entering the tomb, they saw a young man (νεανίσκον) sitting on the right side, dressed in a white robe (στολὴν), and they were alarmed.
robe = στολή (stolé)
apostle = ἀπόστολος = ἀπό-στολος (apostolos)
Interesting idea, Kunigunde! It could be a play on words (Mark loved to throw little "curves" like that), given that the scene in the tomb is one that ties it to the baptism of John at the start of the gospel. Furthermore, as I have already pointed out here on a number of occasions, fragments the first verse of the third chapter of Malachi is paraphrased in both Mk1:2 ("Behold, I send my messenger to prepare the way before me...", and Mk16:6 ("the Lord whom you seek..."). This can be hardly a coincidence since the very next verse says :

Mal 3:2 "But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears?" which directly bears on the flight of the women from the tomb and the youth when Jesus is taken. The youth recovers and becomes the baptising messenger (who attempts to baptize the women into Christ's death, thus complementing John's baptism at Jordan, in fulfilment of Rom 6:3-6). There are also some echoes of Amos 2:16 in Mk 14:51-52, and the loss of garment would symbolize the lack of the youth's girding (i.e. his lack of preparedness for the coming of the Lord on Passover, Exo 12:11) - which is presented by Mark with an ironical twist, as the arrest of Jesus in Gethsemane.
Very good!

Another argument should be based on math:

- there are 4 persons in the tomb
- 3 of them said nothing to none
- 1 person is left

Usually it is argued against the text and against all logic
Well, there is some good news here, after all. And you may have already figured it out. If they women never said anything to anyone, how are we here? Where did Christianity come from if no one ever spread the message that Jesus had risen? Forget Christianity, how did Mark know?

It’s clear that the women had to have said something to someone.
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