Well, you can think so if you like, as you are "obviously" very very very positive of the correctness of your interpretation. I think your POV involves splitting hairs.rakovsky wrote:DCHindley wrote:If you want to continue to discuss the Onias III 164 BC theory with me, it's OK, but my request if you want to do that is to start at the beginning: by quoting what was the specific command to rebuild Jerusalem that starts the countdown.
For example, in your quote above, you wrote: "The governing period of the cryptogram is 62 weeks of years, starting with the year in which Jeremiah 29:10 *appears* to have been uttered (circa 597/6 BCE, based on Jer. 29:2)"
Jeremiah 29:10 says: For thus saith the Lord, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place.
Jeremiah 29 says he will perform a word, in causing him "to return" to Israel.
Jeremiah 29 is not the same thing as issuing a "Word to Rebuild" Jerusalem.
Returning to Israel does not entail rebuilding the city because the latter was expressly forbidden until the king permitted it. An actual "Word to Rebuild" Jerusalem is in fact mentioned later in Tanakh as happening after the Return.
Jer 29:10 (Hebrew 36:10 in Lxx) "For thus says the LORD: When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will visit you, and I will fulfil to you my promise and bring you [plural, the deportees] back to this place [Jerusalem]," should not be read in isolation from verse 2 of this same chapter, "This was after King Jeconiah [Jehoiachin], and the queen mother, the eunuchs, the princes of Judah and Jerusalem, the craftsmen, and the smiths had departed from Jerusalem," events which can be dated on other grounds to March 16, 597 BCE. Hence my grounding of the "word" (the "says" of "says the LORD") to 597 BCE. The "word" is not to a decree of a king, which is what you want it to mean so it can be moved to about 460 BCE (about the 6th year of Artaxerxes I) in order to allow 490 years to calculate closer to 30 CE, but God's word uttered through Jeremiah predicting return after 70 years, not soon as the false prophets in both Judea and Babylon were predicting.
The part about the rebuilding of the city may refer to 30:18 (37:18 in Lxx), "Thus says the LORD: Behold, I will restore the fortunes of the tents of Jacob, and have compassion on his dwellings; the city shall be rebuilt upon its mound, and the palace shall stand where it used to be." Many scholars say that Hebrew verses 30:1-31:40 (The Book of Consolation, ch 37:1-38:40 in the Lxx) reflects the period 622-609 BCE and the city probably refers to Samaria, not Jerusalem, but to a casual reader, such as the composer of Daniel 9, this disjointedness may not be obvious, and it may be thought to refer to the return of Judah from captivity.
Isn't bible prophecy FUN?!
FWIW, this is how early Christian writers *actually* interpreted Dan 9's "70 years":
None of these seem to imagine 490 literal years of time passing between a decree to the coming of Jesus Christ. The three periods are seen as periods of time relating to Christ, but not necessarily chronologically following upon one another.ANF vol 1, 138: Ep. Barnabas ch 4: ... The final stumbling-block (or source of danger) approaches, concerning which it is written, as Enoch12 says, "For for this end the Lord has cut short the times and the days, that His Beloved may hasten; and He will come to the inheritance." And the prophet also speaks thus: "Ten kingdoms shall reign upon the earth, and a little king shall rise up after them, who shall subdue under one three of the kings."13 In like manner Daniel says concerning the same, "And I beheld the fourth beast, wicked and powerful, and more savage than all the beasts of the earth, and how from it sprang up ten horns, and out of them a little budding horn, and how it subdued under one three of the great horns."14 Ye ought therefore to understand. And this also I further beg of you, as being one of you, and loving you both individually and collectively more than my own soul, to take heed now to yourselves, and not to be like some, adding largely to your sins, and saying, "The covenant is both theirs and ours."15 But they thus finally lost it, after Moses had already received it.
12 The Latin reads, "Daniel" instead of "Enoch;" comp. Dan. 9.24-27.
13 Dan. 7.24, very loosely quoted.
14 Dan. 7.7, 8, also very inaccurately cited.
15 We here follow the Latin text in preference to the Greek, which reads merely, "the covenant is ours." What follows seems to show the correctness of the Latin, as the author proceeds to deny that the Jews had any further interest in the promises.
ANF 1, 147: Ep. Barnabas ch 16: Let us inquire, then, if there still is a temple of God. There is--where He himself declared He would make and finish it. For it is written, "And it shall come to pass, when the week is completed, the temple of God shall be built in glory in the name of the Lord."15
15 Dan. 9.24-27; Hag. 2.10.
ANF 1, 554: Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 5.25: And then he (the angel Gabriel from Daniel 7) points out the time that his tyranny shall last, during which the saints shall be put to flight, they who offer a pure sacrifice unto God: "And in the midst of the week," he says, "the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away, and the abomination of desolation [shall be brought] into the temple: even unto the consummation of the time shall the desolation be complete."8 Now three years and six months constitute the half-week.
8 Dan. 9.27.
ANF 2, 329: Clement of Alexandria, Miscellanies, 1.21: From the captivity at Babylon, which took place in the time of Jeremiah the prophet, was fulfilled what was spoken by Daniel the prophet as follows: "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people, and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to seal sins, and to wipe out and make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal the vision and the prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies. Know therefore, and understand, that from the going forth of the word commanding an answer to be given, and Jerusalem to be built, to Christ the Prince, are seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; and the street shall be again built, and the wall; and the times shall be expended. And after the sixty-two weeks the anointing shall be overthrown, and judgment shall not be in him; and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary along with the coming Prince. And they shall be destroyed in a flood, and to the end of the war shall be cut off by desolations. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week; and in the middle of the week the sacrifice and oblation shall be taken away; and in the holy place shall be the abomination of desolations, and until the consummation of time shall the consummation be assigned for desolation. And in the midst of the week shall he make the incense of sacrifice cease, and of the wing of destruction, even till the consummation, like the destruction of the oblation."1 That the temple accordingly was built in seven weeks, is evident; for it is written in Esdras. And thus Christ became King of the Jews, reigning in Jerusalem in the fulfilment of the seven weeks. And in the sixty and two weeks the whole of Judaea was quiet, and without wars. And Christ our Lord, "the Holy of Holies," having come and fulfilled the vision and the prophecy, was anointed in His flesh by the Holy Spirit of His Father. In those "sixty and two weeks," as the prophet said, and "in the one week," was He Lord. The half of the week Nero held sway, and in the holy city Jerusalem placed the abomination; and in the half of the week he was taken away, and Otho, and Galba, and Vitellius. And Vespasian rose to the supreme power, and destroyed Jerusalem, and desolated the holy place. And that such are the facts of the case, is clear to him that is able to understand, as the prophet said.
1 Dan. 9.24-27.
ANF 3, 158-159: Tertullian, An Answer to the Jews, Ch 8: Of the Times of Christ’s Birth and Passion, and of Jerusalem’s Destruction.
[158] ... Accordingly the times must be inquired into of the predicted and future nativity of the Christ, and of His passion, and of the extermination of the city of Jerusalem, that is, its devastation. For Daniel says, that “both the holy city and the holy place are exterminated together with the coming Leader, and that the pinnacle is destroyed unto ruin.”7 And so the times of the coming Christ, the Leader,8 must be inquired into, which we shall trace in Daniel; and, after computing them, shall prove Him to be come, even on the ground of the times prescribed, and of competent signs and operations of His. Which matters we prove, again, on the ground of the consequences which were ever announced as to follow His advent; in order that we may believe all to have been as well fulfilled as foreseen.
In such wise, therefore, did Daniel predict concerning Him, as to show both when and in what time He was to set the nations free; and how, after the passion of the Christ, that city had to be exterminated. For he says thus: “In the first year under Darius, son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, who reigned over the kingdom of the Chaldees, I Daniel understood in the books the number of the years.…And while I was yet speaking in my prayer, behold, the man Gabriel, whom I saw in the vision in the beginning, flying; and he touched me, as it were, at the hour of the evening sacrifice, and made me understand, and spake with me, and said, Daniel I am now come out to imbue thee with understanding; in the beginning of thy supplication went out a word. And I am come to announce to thee, because thou art a man [159] of desires;1 and ponder thou on the word, and understand in the vision. Seventy hebdomads have been abridged2 upon thy commonalty, and upon the holy city, until delinquency be made inveterate, and sins sealed, and righteousness obtained by entreaty, and righteousness eternal introduced; and in order that vision and prophet may be sealed, and an holy one of holy ones anointed. And thou shalt know, and thoroughly see, and understand, from the going forth of a word for restoring and rebuilding Jerusalem unto the Christ, the Leader, hebdomads (seven and an half, and3 ) lxii and an half: and it shall convert, and shall be built into height and entrenchment, and the times shall be renewed: and after these lxii hebdomads shall the anointing be exterminated, and shall not be; and the city and the holy place shall he exterminate together with the Leader, who is making His advent; and they shall be cut short as in a deluge, until (the) end of a war, which shall be cut short unto ruin. And he shall confirm a testament in many. In one hebdomad and the half of the hebdomad shall be taken away my sacrifice and libation, and in the holy place the execration of devastation, (and4 ) until the end of (the) time consummation shall be given with regard to this devastation.”5
Observe we, therefore, the limit,—how, in truth, he predicts that there are to be lxx hebdomads, within which if they receive Him, “it shall be built into height and entrenchment, and the times shall be renewed.” But God, foreseeing what was to be—that they will not merely not receive Him, but will both persecute and deliver Him to death—both recapitulated, and said, that in lx and ii and an half of an hebdomad He is born, and an holy one of holy ones is anointed; but that when vii hebdomads6 and an half were fulfilling, He had to suffer, and the holy city had to be exterminated after one and an half hebdomad—whereby namely, the seven and an half hebdomads have been completed. For he says thus: “And the city and the holy place to be exterminated together with the leader who is to come; and they shall be cut short as in a deluge; and he shall destroy the pinnacle unto ruin.”7 Whence, therefore, do we show that the Christ came within the lxii and an half hebdomads? We shall count, moreover, from the first year of Darius, as at this particular time is shown to Daniel this particular vision; for he says, “And understand and conjecture that at the completion of thy word8 I make thee these answers.” Whence we are bound to compute from the first year of Darius, when Daniel saw this vision.
158n7 See Dan. 9.26 (especially in the LXX.).
158n8 Comp. Isa. 55.4.
159n1 Vir desideriorum; Gr. ἀνὴρ ἐπιθυμιῶν; Eng. ver. “a man greatly beloved.” Elsewhere Tertullian has another rendering—“miserabilis.” See de Jej. cc. vii, ix.
159n2 Or, “abbreviated;” breviatae sunt; Gr. συνετμήθνσαν. For this rendering, and the interpretations which in ancient and modern days have been founded on it, see G. S. Faber’s Dissert. on the prophecy of the seventy weeks, pp. 5, 6, 109–112. (London, 1811.) The whole work will repay perusal.
159n3 These words are given, by Oehler and Rig., on the authority of Pamelius. The mss. and early editions are without them.
159n4 Also supplied by Pamelius.
159n5 See Dan. 9.24-27. It seemed best to render with the strictest literality, without regard to anything else; as an idea will thus then be given of the condition of the text, which, as it stands, differs widely, as will be seen, from the Hebrew and also from the LXX., as it stands in the ed. Tisch. Lips. 1860, to which I always adapt my references.
159n6 Hebdomades is preferred to Oehler’s [Hebdomad]-as, a reading which he follows apparently on slender authority.
159n7 There is no trace of these last words in Tischendorf’s LXX. here; and only in his footnotes is the “pinnacle” mentioned.
159n8 Or, “speech.” The reference seems to be to ver. 23, but there is no such statement in Daniel.
ANF 3, 353: Tertullian, Against Marcion, 4.7: My present discussion is, how the evil spirit could have known that He [Jesus as Holy One of God, Luke 4.34] was called by such a name, when there had never at any time been uttered about Him a single prophecy by a god who was unknown, and up to that time silent, of whom it was not possible for Him to be attested as “the Holy One,” as (of a god) unknown even to his own Creator. What similar event could he then have published7 of a new deity, whereby he might betoken for “the holy one” of the rival god? Simply that he went into the synagogue, and did nothing even in word against the Creator? As therefore he could not by any means acknowledge him, whom he was ignorant of, to be Jesus and the Holy One of God; so did he acknowledge Him whom he knew (to be both). For he remembered how that the prophet had prophesied8 of “the Holy One” of God, and how that God’s name of “Jesus” was in the son of Nun.9
7 Quid tale ediderit.
8 Ps. 16.10, and probably Dan. 9.24.
9 Compare what was said above in [Against Marcion] book iii., chap. xvi. p. 335.
ANF 4, 106-107: Tertullian, On Fasting, 7: [106] ... Look at Daniel’s example. About the dream of the King of Babylon all the sophists are troubled: they affirm that, without external aid, it cannot be discovered by human skill. Daniel alone, trusting to God, and knowing what would tend to the deserving of God’s favour, requires a space of three days, fasts with his fraternity, and — his prayers thus commended — is instructed throughout as to the order and signification of the dream; quarter is granted to the tyrant’s sophists; God is glorified; Daniel is honoured; destined as he was to receive, even subsequently also, no less a favour of God in the first year, of King Darius, when, after careful [107] and repeated meditation upon the times predicted by Jeremiah, he set his face to God in fasts, and sackcloth, and ashes. For the angel, withal, sent to him, immediately professed this to be the cause of the Divine approbation: “I am come,” he said, “to demonstrate to thee, since thou art pitiable”1 —by fasting, to wit. If to God he was “pitiable,” to the lions in the den he was formidable, where, six days fasting, he had breakfast provided him by an angel.2
1 Dan. 9.23; 10.11.
2 See Bel and the Dragon (in LXX.) vers. 31-39. “Pitiable” appears to be Tertullian’s rendering of what in the E.V. is rendered “greatly beloved.” Rig. (in Oehler) renders: “of how great compassion thou hast attained the favour;” but surely that overlooks the fact that the Latin is “miserabilis es,” not “sis.”
ANF 4, 353: Origen, First Principals, 4.1: ... The weeks of years, also, which the prophet Daniel had predicted, extending to the leadership of Christ,2 have been fulfilled.
2 Cf. Dan. 9.25. Ad ducem Christum; “To Messiah the Prince,” Auth. Vers.
ANF 4, 594-595: Origen, Against Celsus, 6.46: [594] ... What is stated by Paul in the words quoted from him, where he says, “so that he sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God,”8 is in Daniel referred to in the following fashion: “And on the temple shall be [595] the abomination of desolations, and at the end of the time an end shall be put to the desolation.”1 So many, out of a greater number of passages, have I thought it right to adduce, that the hearer may understand in some slight degree the meaning of holy Scripture, when it gives us information concerning the devil and Antichrist; and being satisfied with what we have quoted for this purpose, let us look at another of the charges of Celsus, and reply to it as we best may.
594n8 Cf. 2 Thess. 2.4
595n1 Cf. Dan. 9.27 (LXX.).
ANF 5, 212-213: Hippolytus, Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 43: [212] ... With respect, then, to the particular judgment in the torments that are to come upon it in the last times by the hand of the tyrants who shall arise then, the clearest statement has been given in these passages. But it becomes us further diligently to examine and set forth the period at which these things shall come to pass, and how the little horn shall spring up in their midst. For [213] when the legs of iron have issued in the feet and toes, according to the similitude of the image and that of the terrible beast, as has been shown in the above, (then shall be the time) when the iron and the clay shall be mingled together. Now Daniel will set forth this subject to us. For he says, “And one week will make1 a covenant with many, and it shall be that in the midst (half) of the week my sacrifice and oblation shall cease.”2 By one week, therefore, he meant the last week which is to be at the end of the whole world of which week the two prophets Enoch and Elias will take up the half. For they will preach 1, 260 days clothed in sackcloth, proclaiming repentance to the people and to all the nations.
213n1 διαθήσει = will make; others, δυναμώσει = will confirm.
213n2 Dan. 9.27.
ANF 5, 247: Hippolytus, Appendix (Likely Spurious), Discourse on the End of the World, 21:
For through the Scriptures we are instructed in two advents of the Christ and Saviour. And the first after the flesh was in humiliation, because He was manifested in lowly estate. So then His second advent is declared to be in glory; for He comes from heaven with power, and angels, and the glory of His Father. His first advent had John the Baptist as its forerunner; and His second, in which He is to come in glory, will exhibit Enoch, and Elias, and John the Divine.1 Behold, too, the Lord’s kindness to man; how even in the last times He shows His care for mortals, and pities them. For He will not leave us even then without prophets, but will send them to us for our instruction and assurance, and to make us give heed to the advent of the adversary, as He intimated also of old in this Daniel. For he says, “I shall make a covenant of one week, and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and libation will be removed.” For by one week he indicates the showing forth of the seven years which shall be in the last times.2
1 Or, the theologian. The Apocalypse (xi. 3) mentions only two witnesses, who are understood by the ancients in general as Enoch and Elias. The author of the Chronicon Paschale, p. 21, on Enoch, says: “This is he who, along with Elias, is to withstand Antichrist in the last days, and to confute his deceit, according to the tradition of the Church.” This addition as to the return of John the Evangelist is somewhat more uncommon. And yet Ephraem of Antioch, in Photius, cod. ccxxix., states that this too is supported by ancient, ecclesiastical tradition, Christ’s saying in John xxi. 22 being understood to that effect. See also Hippolytus, De Antichristo, ch. l. p. 213, supra.—Migne. [Enoch and Elias are not dead. But see Heb. 9.27.]
2 Dan. 9.27. ( Note our author’s adoption of the plan of a year for a day, Ezek. 4.6. See Pusey, Daniel, p. 165.]
ANF 5, 248: Hippolytus, Appendix (of likely Spurious works), Discourse on the End of the World, 25:
And at first, indeed, that deceitful and lawless one, with crafty deceitfulness, will refuse such glory; but the men persisting, and holding by him, will declare him king. And thereafter he will be lifted up in heart, and he who was formerly gentle will become violent, and he who pursued love will become pitiless, and the humble in heart will become haughty and inhuman, and the hater of unrighteousness will persecute the righteous. Then, when he is elevated to his kingdom, he will marshal war; and in his wrath he will smite three mighty kings, — those, namely, of Egypt, Libya, and Ethiopia. And after that he will build the temple in Jerusalem, and will restore it again speedily, and give it over to the Jews. And then he will be lifted up in heart against every man; yea, he will speak blasphemy also against God, thinking in his deceit that he shall be king upon the earth hereafter for ever; not knowing, miserable wretch, that his kingdom is to be quickly brought to nought, and that he will quickly have to meet the fire which is prepared for him, along with all who trust him and serve him. For when Daniel said, “I shall make my covenant for one week,”9 he indicated seven years; and the one half of the week is for the preaching of the prophets, and for the other half of the week—that is to say, for three years and a half — Antichrist will reign upon the earth. And after this his kingdom and his glory shall be taken away.
9 Dan. 9.27. [The ἀνομία which more and more prevails in our age in all nations, makes all this very significant to us, of “the last days.”]
ANF 6, 375: Methodius, Discourse on the Resurrection, 12: The transformation, he says, is the restoration into an impassible and glorious state. For now the body is a body of desire and of humiliation,7 and therefore Daniel was called “a man of desires.”8 But then it will be transfigured into an impassible body, not by the change of the arrangement of the members, but by its not desiring carnal pleasures.
7 Phil. 3.21.
8 Dan. 9.23, marginal reading.
ANF 7, 357: Victorinus, Commentary on the Apocalypse of the Blessed John, ch 13: Thence here he places, and by and by here he renews, that of which the Lord, admonishing His churches concerning the last times and their dangers, says: "But when ye shall see the contempt which is spoken of by Daniel the prophet standing in the holy place, let him who readeth understand."2 It is called a contempt when God is provoked, because idols are worshipped instead of God, or when the dogma of heretics is introduced in the churches. But it is a turning away because stedfast men, seduced by false signs and portents, are turned away from their salvation.
2 Matt. 24.15; Dan. 9.27.
ANF 8, 94: Anonymous, The Recognitions of Clement, 64: Temple to Be Destroyed.
“‘For we,’ said I, ‘have ascertained beyond doubt that God is much rather displeased with the sacrifices which you offer, the time of sacrifices having now passed away; and because ye will not acknowledge that the time for offering victims is now past, therefore the temple shall be destroyed, and the abomination of desolation1 shall stand in the holy place; and then the Gospel shall be preached to the Gentiles for a testimony against you, that your unbelief may be judged by their faith. For the whole world at different times suffers under divers maladies, either spreading generally over all, or affecting specially. Therefore it needs a physician to visit it for its salvation. We therefore bear witness to you, and declare to you what has been hidden from every one of you. It is for you to consider what is for your advantage.’”
1 Dan. 9.27; Matt. 24.15.
So, just because it CAN be interpreted, with a little ingenuity, as predicting the coming of Jesus Christ, doesn't mean it MUST be so interpreted.
DCH
