The temple saying & traditions before Mark.

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Solo
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Re: The temple saying & traditions before Mark.

Post by Solo »

Ben C. Smith wrote:Subject: Blasphemy & the passion narrative before Mark.
andrewcriddle wrote:This blog post does-marks-jesus-prophesy-the-destruction-of-the-temple may possibly be relevant to Mark's views about Jesus and the temple.
Thanks. My question is more about what Mark thinks of the accusation that Jesus said he would destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days. This exact prediction is placed only here in the gospel, and it is placed on the mouths of false witnesses. The saying in Mark 13.1-2 lacks anything about rebuilding the temple, and does not predict that Jesus himself will destroy it (or the Herodian buildings, or anything); furthermore, it is presented as a private conversation between Jesus and his disciples. The options for what Mark intends begin to multiply:
  1. The accusation is false, and is a complete invention of the false witnesses.
  2. The accusation is false, and is a garbled overhearing of the conversation in 13.2 and/or 9.31 (both of which are presented as private conversations).
  3. The accusation is true, but the saying actually goes unnarrated in the gospel; furthermore, the saying is misunderstood (taken too literally).
  4. The accusation is true, but the saying actually goes unnarrated in the gospel; furthermore, the saying is understood correctly.
If John 2.19 were actually a verse somewhere in Mark, nobody would bat an eye: Jesus said it, the Jews heard it, and they reported it at his hearing with a slightly tendentious rewording, since in John he does not explicitly say that he himself will destroy the temple. But without such a verse earlier in Mark, it is not necessarily clear to me what Mark intends.

Crossan, IIRC, thinks that this saying had some currency amongst early Christians, and that each one interpreted it as best s/he could, so to speak. It goes in one direction in Matthew 26.61 and Mark 14.58, in another in John 2.19, in yet another in Acts 6.14, and in quite another again in Thomas 71. If this saying had currency amongst early Christians, then that would indicate some sort of tradition before Mark, one to which Mark is reacting. This would explain why the saying receives no introduction in Mark: the evangelist expects his readership to have already heard it, and he is simply putting it into what he believes to be its proper context (perhaps favoring #1 or possibly #2 above).

But I have not given this matter much thought for many years now, and am more than ready to hear different takes on it.

Ben.
Hi Ben,
this "false accusation" of Jesus in Mk 14:57-59 and the most shocking exegesis of it in John 2:21, was what finally convinced me some four years ago that Mark alone was the originator of the passion story and that it was constructed as an allegorical narrative to "justify" Paul's gospel. Whatever one wants to believe, Mark states without any equivocation that the witness against Jesus was false. He paraphrases the accusation using the interesting contrasting adverbs "cheiropoiētos" (made with hands) and "acheiropoiētos" (not made with hands). The problem of course is that the latter one in the pair seems to be a very rare sort of word, so rare in fact that it would not be used by casual bystanders in the drama, except if Mark wanted to adapt their vocabulary to that of Paul. That this word was adapted by Paul for new use, I personally have very little doubt. Like "systauroō", or "thēriomacheō" it bears witness to the apostle's unusual mental processes and linguistic creativity. That Mark and John as the gospel narrators would not only borrow a central theological maxim of Paul's (body as temple, 1 Co 6:19), but smuggle it into the passion narrative as a wilful misunderstanding on the part of the Nazarene's accusers, simply presents itself as too much of a contrived literary device to have originated in a memory of events. Add to it "acheiropoiētos" (from 2 Cor 5:1) in the original form of the narrative - which is Mark, without a doubt.

It was Mark who devised the seemingly easy-to-get comedy of errors to fulfil Paul's gospel, along with his insistence that Jesus was promised in the OT. (The Jews by and large did not buy it and had Paul whipped when he presented his insane inventions about the their Scripture). Jesus assembles a band of followers who idolize him as Messiah, but he is not the classical Jewish shepherd king to take over Jerusalem - as they hope and want to profit from as his companions - but the Messiah's theological anti-thesis of Paul who must die as God's faithful servant to be resurrected, as the firstfruit of faith. He leads them to Jerusalem to fulfil Paul. The entourage does not get it, even though Jesus repeats "his" teaching. They do not get "his" gospel, and the messianic secret (!). They are thinking God's kingdom in Jerusalem - he talks of Paul's Jerusalem above. He must die as skandalon to the Sanhedrin and folly to Pilate, and then rise again. His messianic consciousness is steeped in Paul from the drop of the Spirit into him by the Jordan to his last cry on the cross (crucified in weakness..2 Co 13:4). The Jews, like his entourage mistake Jesus for the pretender of David's throne. He upsets them. Pilate sees Jesus as innocent but in fulfilling the folly of a crucified Messiah, commits treason against Rome in letting an insurrectionist go free to make it happen.

Best,
Jiri
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Re: The temple saying & traditions before Mark.

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Solo wrote:This "false accusation" of Jesus in Mk 14:57-59 and the most shocking exegesis of it in John 2:21, was what finally convinced me some four years ago that Mark alone was the originator of the passion story and that it was constructed as an allegorical narrative to "justify" Paul's gospel. Whatever one wants to believe, Mark states without any equivocation that the witness against Jesus was false. He paraphrases the accusation using the interesting contrasting adverbs "cheiropoiētos" (made with hands) and "acheiropoiētos" (not made with hands). The problem of course is that the latter one in the pair seems to be a very rare sort of word, so rare in fact that it would not be used by casual bystanders in the drama, except if Mark wanted to adapt their vocabulary to that of Paul. That this word was adapted by Paul for new use, I personally have very little doubt. Like "systauroō", or "thēriomacheō" it bears witness to the apostle's unusual mental processes and linguistic creativity. That Mark and John as the gospel narrators would not only borrow a central theological maxim of Paul's (body as temple, 1 Co 6:19), but smuggle it into the passion narrative as a wilful misunderstanding on the part of the Nazarene's accusers, simply presents itself as too much of a contrived literary device to have originated in a memory of events. Add to it "acheiropoiētos" (from 2 Cor 5:1) in the original form of the narrative - which is Mark, without a doubt.
These are excellent points, Solo. I want to present some data to round them out and provide context.

First, here are the hits that I get from the TLG (on Diogenes) for ἀχειροποίητος, once the obviously Christian texts have been removed:

1.

Historia Alexandri Magni, Recensio α sive Recensio vetusta (1386: 001)
“Historia Alexandri Magni, vol. 1”, Ed. Kroll, W.
Berlin: Weidmann, 1926.
Book 1, chapter 34, section 6, line 4

καίτοι θαυμάζω, πῶς ὅλως
κατελήφθητε ὑπὸ βαρβάρων τείχη ἔχοντες ἀχειροποίητα, μὴ δυνάμενα
καταβληθῆναι ὑπὸ πολεμίων.

2.

Historia Alexandri Magni, Recensio β (1386: 002)
“Der griechische Alexanderroman. Rezension β”, Ed. Bergson, L.
Stockholm: Almqvist & Wiksell, 1965.
Book 1, section 34, line 21

ἀλλὰ τοῦτο τῆς ἄνω προνοίας
ἐστὶ καὶ τῆς τῶν θεῶν δικαιότητος, ἵνα ὑμεῖς ἔχοντες εὔφορον γῆν καὶ γόνιμον
ποταμὸν ἀχειροποίητον ὑποτεταγμένοι ἐστὲ τοῖς μὴ ἔχουσι <ταῦτα.

Historia Alexandri Magni, Recensio γ (lib. 1) (1386: 003)
“Der griechische Alexanderroman. Rezension γ. Buch I”, Ed. von Lauenstein, U.
Meisenheim am Glan: Hain, 1962; Beiträge zur klassischen Philologie 4.
Section 34*, line 29

ἀλλὰ τοῦτο τῆς
ἄνω προνοίας ἐστὶ καὶ τῆς τῶν θεῶν δικαιότητος· ὡς ἂν ὑ-
μεῖς οἱ ἔχοντες εὔφορον γῆν καὶ γόνιμον ποταμὸν ἀχειρο-
ποίητον ὑποτεταγμένοι ἔστε τοῖς μὴ ἔχουσι † περιδέρρεα †
καὶ βασιλεύεσθε παρ' αὐτῶν, ἔθνησκον γὰρ οἱ βάρβαροι ταῦ-
τα μὴ ἔχοντες.

3.

Pherecydes Hist., Fragmenta (1584: 003)
“FHG 1”, Ed. Müller, K.
Paris: Didot, 1841–1870.
Fragment 101b, line 2

Tzetz. ad Lycophr. 355: Φερεκύδης παλλάδια
λέγει τὰ ἀχειροποίητα μορφώματα, καὶ πᾶν τὸ ἐξ
οὐρανοῦ εἰς γῆν παλλόμενον.

Only 3 hits in 2 different works. So yes, this is a pretty rare term. On the other hand, it is also just the usual negative prefix ἀ- added to the adjective χειροποίητος, which is much more common (and which appears quite a few times in the LXX). So I am not sure how much raw creativity the word shows on Paul's part. But the point remains: the negative form is a rare word.

Second, it is not necessarily clear to me that Mark uses the term "temple" as a metaphor for the body, though of course John certainly does. (Whether Mark does or not is part of the question on this thread; as such, it is a conclusion to be a defended, not a proposition to be assumed.) How indeed would the accusation still be false in Mark 14.58: "I will destroy this temple made with hands, and in three days I will build another made without hands," unless perhaps the only thing making it false, compared to the prediction in Mark 8.31, is who will destroy the temple (the authorities or Jesus himself)? And yet even here Jesus himself can be seen throughout the passion narrative (and even before) as bringing on his own fate, thus in some way destroying the temple of his own body. Is this enough to make the witness false? Is Mark playing with technicalities? If, on the other hand, the temple is the temple (and not a metaphor for anybody's body), then the witness could very well be false from the vantage point of this gospel. What do you think?
It was Mark who devised the seemingly easy-to-get comedy of errors to fulfil Paul's gospel, along with his insistence that Jesus was promised in the OT. (The Jews by and large did not buy it and had Paul whipped when he presented his insane inventions about the their Scripture). Jesus assembles a band of followers who idolize him as Messiah, but he is not the classical Jewish shepherd king to take over Jerusalem - as they hope and want to profit from as his companions - but the Messiah's theological anti-thesis of Paul who must die as God's faithful servant to be resurrected, as the firstfruit of faith. He leads them to Jerusalem to fulfil Paul. The entourage does not get it, even though Jesus repeats "his" teaching. They do not get "his" gospel, and the messianic secret (!). They are thinking God's kingdom in Jerusalem - he talks of Paul's Jerusalem above. He must die as skandalon to the Sanhedrin and folly to Pilate, and then rise again. His messianic consciousness is steeped in Paul from the drop of the Spirit into him by the Jordan to his last cry on the cross (crucified in weakness..2 Co 13:4). The Jews, like his entourage mistake Jesus for the pretender of David's throne. He upsets them. Pilate sees Jesus as innocent but in fulfilling the folly of a crucified Messiah, commits treason against Rome in letting an insurrectionist go free to make it happen.
All of this is possible. I do not, however, think it follows directly from a judicious handling of a single motif and a single word in a single pericope of the entire passion narrative. Doubtless you have other arguments to bring to bear that cover the other pericopae.

Ben.
Last edited by Ben C. Smith on Wed May 17, 2017 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Solo
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Re: The temple saying & traditions before Mark.

Post by Solo »

Ben C. Smith wrote:First, here are the hits that I get from the TLG (on Diogenes) for ἀχειροποίητος, once the obviously Christian texts have been removed:
3 hits in 2 different works. So yes, this is a pretty rare term. On the other hand, it is also just the usual negative prefix ἀ- added to the adjective χειροποίητος, which is much more common (and which appears quite a few times in the LXX). So I am not sure how much raw creativity the word shows on Paul's part. But the point remains: the negative form is a rare word.
Thanks, for the Thesaurus extracts, Ben. They are certainly useful in connection with Paul’s lexicon. I am not saying that Paul was necessarily coining new words, though Greek, like German allows words to be created by manipulation of existing words, so no big issue there in any case. It’s more the way Paul was “appropriating” words for his mystical semantics which makes him original. Crossan e.g. pointed out that Paul apparently talked himself as “demios Christou” in a figurative sense (although he believes that he also indicates he was incarcerated). I read Phm 1:1 as “prisoner of Christ”, not “for Christ”, on the strength of the mention of Epaphras in 1:23 as “synaichmalōtos en Christō",” and the “nyni” in Phm 1:9 as a later gloss by someone who was not clued in thought Paul was writing from jail where he had special visiting privileges. And again, if you have a minute, can you look up in TLG “euaggelion” as noun before Paul, if there is any hint anyone used as Paul in connection with the “preaching gospel to the afflicted” as per Isa 61:1? I suspect not.
Second, it is not necessarily clear to me that Mark uses the term "temple" as a metaphor for the body, though of course John certainly does. (Whether Mark does or not is part of the question on this thread; as such, it is a conclusion to be a defended, not a proposition to be assumed.) How indeed would the accusation still be false in Mark 14.58: "I will destroy this temple made with hands, and in three days I will build another made without hands," unless perhaps the only thing making it false, compared to the prediction in Mark 8.31, is who will destroy the temple (the authorities or Jesus himself)? And yet even here Jesus himself can be seen throughout the passion narrative (and even before) as bringing on his own fate, thus in some way destroying the temple of his own body. Is this enough to make the witness false? Is Mark playing with technicalities? If, on the other hand, the temple is the temple (and not a metaphor for anybody's body), then the witness could very well be false from the vantage point of this gospel. What do you think?
What makes the statement false IMO is that Jesus did not say the way it was presented at the trial. In 13:1-2 he clearly predicts the destruction of the temple; he does not threaten to demolish the structure himself. The accusation furthermore asserts that the witnesses heard the part of the “temple not built with hands”, which Jesus would (or would not) be telling a crowd which knew nothing of Paul’s teaching, simply because Paul was not around yet. This would have been hilarious nonsense to the ecstatics who were insiders (as per 4:10-11), and Mark punctuates it with his “they couldn’t get their story straight” in 14:59.

I think it is safe to assume that Mark wrote after Paul. It is also safe to assume that if Mark wanted to create an allegoric mystery around Paul’s corpus he would not make it easy to grasp by outsiders. Paul, contrary what is asserted about him in the Acts and here and there in the pseudo-Paulines, was not converting far and wide in all strata of society. That is a later church propaganda which reflects its ambitions a century or so later. Paul himself purposely restricted his audience saying that he preaches his wisdom exclusively “to the mature” (1 Co 2:6) and later in the chapter (14) : “the unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned”. Jesus’ shocking denial of grace to wide audience in Mark 4:10-12 follows this declaration of spiritual election: “And when he was alone, those who were about him with the twelve asked him concerning the parables. And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables; so that they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand; lest they should turn again, and be forgiven."

These verses shock the modern theologians because because what Jesus says here does not fall with the portrayal of him as the universal Saviour. Jesus’ rather nasty denial of grace here bespeaks of a sharp divide between the cult of the elect who (already) have the capacity to “get the gospel text” and those who don’t. This is shocking because the seminaries and allied academia still operate on a totally unsustainable picture of a monolithic post-Easter church into which Paul – the great sinner who persecuted the church of God – was graciously accepted. So you have Markan scholars from Wrede to Raisanen, lamenting that Mark is impossible to crack, even though what Mark (ending at 16:8) wrote leaves no doubt that, a) the preaching of Christ crucified originated with Paul and not with James’ house in Jerusalem, and that b) the process of uniting the two main strands of Christians was not yet finished in Mark’s time. The disciples do not get the Paul’s gospel that Jesus preaches to them, and the word of his rising does not reach them. (Actually, it does, kind of, through Mark thumbing his gospel nose at them - and by extension those who follow them in his own time - as scattered sheep who do not get the news of Jesus’ resurrection because they do not have "faith"). Ergo….Mark either lied in presenting symbolically the Christian beginnings, or the tale of Jesus appearing to Peter and company post-mortem – thus certifying them as apostolic authority - did not arrive as yet. It is as simple as that ! Of course, ever since Peter, the guardians of Christian traditions have the option of running away from unpleasant realities and deny them three times before the cock crows.

It needs to be said though that if Mark was the last gospel, Christianity would have likely never become more than a curious mystery club for the spritualist connoisseurs whose New Age experimental psychotherapy faded somewhere in the third century. This was the Achilles heel of Paulinism – it was too self-consciously elitist. Mark, like Paul before him, trash-talked the “other Jesus” tradents (of Peter). That is why Matthew had to declaw and dumb down Mark; without it the gospel story would not have been readable by a wider audience. I think Mary Ann Tolbert was spot on in saying that the aim of Matthew was not simply to “editorialize” Mark. His aim was to defeat Mark’s (Paulinist) purpose. Jesus on the Mount (especially in ch 7) does a great job of it. Matthew was a publicity genius. His Lord’s prayer was not only brilliant piece of liturgy but a horribly effective put-down of Paul who complained that “we don’t pray as we should” (Rom 8:26). Now, imagine the "faithful" followers of Jesus who did not even know the Lord’s prayer ! Brilliant !

You may think it is “assuming too much” to see Paul’s teaching of the “body as temple” as the key to unlock with the conundrum created by Mark around the accusation against Jesus. Ok, what can I say ? All I can do is to point to John 2:21 and ask in turn, “whatever made him interpret the saying that way” ? What are the alternatives here ? You want to believe that John actually heard what was said by Jesus in the temple ? Did Jesus really used Paul’s metaphors ? Or did the risen Lord tell Paul what he taught in Jerusalem and word spread until it was taken down by the ghost-writer of apostle John ? And how did this silly misapprehension of Jesus’ talking about the (edible) temple get into circulation such that it had fatal consequences in the early gospel while having no effect on the unfolding story in the latter one ?

Incidentally, my seeing John here as “outing” Mark’s hidden meaning is based on observation that he does the same thing in 19:24 in presenting the casting of lots for Jesus’ garments as the fulfilled Psalm 22:18. Mark, Matthew & Luke all describe the event but stay silent on the OT connection.
All of this is possible. I do not, however, think it follows directly from a judicious handling of a single motif and a single word in a single pericope of the entire passion narrative. Doubtless you have other arguments to bring to bear that cover the other pericopes.
Actually, Ben I have given you not one but two Paulinist motives in the passion drama. The temple-body mysterion and the two-pronged “trial” of Jesus which proleptically agrees with Paul’s maxim of crucified Christ as stumbling block to the Jews, played out by the Sanhendrin and the hostile throngs, and folly to the Gentiles, played dutifully by Pilate, of course on a blueprint with a Markan twist, in which he is made to release foolishly an anti-Roman insurrectionist in place of a harmless “furiosus”. This would have almost certainly brought the prefect before Caesar on a charge of maiestas.

The Gethsemane scene, as the little Apocalypse before, has strong links to 1 Thessalonians. The arrest is an ironic twist to 1 Th 5:2 : “ You yourselves know that the the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night”. In Mark it is Jesus who is picked by armed men who come against him as if he was a robber. (See John 10:1 to confirm that the lhsths-klepths sayings were interchangeable in the early church) Jesus admonishes his disciples in the fashion of the letter to “watch!” ( 1 Th 5:4-8). Jesus request correlates with Paul’s “but you are not in darkness, brethren, for that day to surprise you like a thief, .. therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch (γρηγορῶμεν) and be sober”. Peter and co fall asleep failing to heed the command to “… put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation”.
When Mark writes in 14:21 “For the Son of man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed (παραδίδοται) !” he without a doubt references the “scripture” of Paul: Rom 4:25 who was delivered up (παρεδόθη) for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

The Eucharist also comes from Paul, though I believe 1 Cor 11:23-26 is a later insert inspired by the Markan staging itself (probably via Luke). Mark builds up his Last Supper symbolism (as well as the preceding eucharistic “events”) from 1 Cor 10:16, and the hyperbolic imagined κυριακὸν δεῖπνον in 1 Cor 11:20, (referenced in 11:27-29).

Finally Peter: I have the strongest suspicion that the Hellenizing of Cephas to Petros comes to us also with compliments of Mark. It probably originated in his playful reading of Rom 9:33 in which he mischievously assigns the second descriptor of the stumbling stone, the πέτρα σκανδάλου to Cephas (though of course Paul meant both, lithos and petra in the verse as referring to Christ). If you don’t like that, I hope you agree at least that Peter’s shameful denial of Jesus seems to fit Gal 6:12’s reasons for the denial of the cross rather conspicuously.

Best,
Jiri
iskander
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Re: The temple saying & traditions before Mark.

Post by iskander »

One Tradition : Shirat Hayam

God Constructed His Own Temple and Brought His People To It

It is widely claimed that the Song’s historical narrative depicts the building of the Temple as the culmination to God’s victory at the Sea. This, it is assumed, is reflected in the final two verses of the Song:
.
You brought them and planted them
in the mountain of Your inheritance,
The place you made for Your dwelling, O Yhwh.
The sanctuary, O Lord, that your hands established.
Yhwh will reign forever and ever.


An Ancient Temple Built By YHWH Himself

This is supported by verse 13, נהלת בעזך אל נוה קדשך , “You guided them by your strength to your holy abode.” An analogous text may be the description in Exodus 19:4 of God bringing Israel to him on Mount Sinai,[18] especially considering the implication in some biblical passages that God’s celestial Temple was located there (cf. Exodus 25:40; 26:30; 27:8; Numbers 8:4).[19]

http://thetorah.com/the-song-of-the-sea ... and-judah/
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Re: The temple saying & traditions before Mark.

Post by andrewcriddle »

It has been suggested that "not made with hands" in Mark and Paul draws on a tradition earlier than either.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Y68 ... ed&f=false

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Re: The temple saying & traditions before Mark.

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Solo wrote:And again, if you have a minute, can you look up in TLG “euaggelion” as noun before Paul, if there is any hint anyone used as Paul in connection with the “preaching gospel to the afflicted” as per Isa 61:1? I suspect not.
That is crazy specific. Jewish writings before Paul written in Greek are rare and fragmentary, and why would Greco-Roman authors use such a noun in connection with Isaiah 61.1?

Just as a noun meaning "good news", εὐαγγέλιον gets quite a few hits in Plutarch; to wit:

Plutarch, Life of Demetrius 17: To this Antigonus replied: "Hail to thee also, by Heaven! but for torturing us in this way, thou shalt undergo punishment; the reward for thy good tidings [τὸ εὐαγγέλιον] thou shalt be some time in getting."

I see a few hits in Homer, such as:

Homer, Odyssey 14, line 152: And let me have a reward for bearing good tidings [], as soon as he shall come, and reach his home; clothe me in a cloak and tunic, goodly raiment.

There are others, as well.

Ben.
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Re: The temple saying & traditions before Mark.

Post by Solo »

andrewcriddle wrote:It has been suggested that "not made with hands" in Mark and Paul draws on a tradition earlier than either.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Y68 ... ed&f=false

Andrew Criddle
Thanks, Andrew. FWIW, I find the description of Paul's temple metaphors on the page baffling. Especially, since the author omits to point out that Paul preached that the physical bodies of the believers are the temple of the Holy Spirit while still on earth; 1 Co 6:19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God? You are not your own. Paul's use of the metaphor is internally consistent.
And if the referral to Barth means that he saw (or the author sees) Mk 14:58 as a product of unspecified older traditions other than 2 Co 5:1 then we have a "suggestion" that is I am afraid not altogether original. It rests simply on preferring sources that we do not know existed to the one(s) that we know did exist.

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Jiri
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Re: The temple saying & traditions before Mark.

Post by iskander »

The Temple as a Body

Shemot (Exodus) 25:8 And you shall make a sanctuary for me; that I may dwell among them.
The Or Hachayim asks why the Torah states “and you shall make a mikdash (Sanctuary) for me”, and then in the next verse it says “the form of the Tabernacle…so shall you do”. Are we talking about the mikdash (Sanctuary) or the Mishkan (Tabernacle)? The Or Hachayim writes that the commandment to make a Mikdash for HaShem is not only referring to the time when Bne Israel were in the desert, but includes all of Jewish history from the time that we were in the desert to the time that we entered eretz Israel. He writes that when the Jewish people are in eretz Israel, and even in a time of Galut (exile), the mitzva to build the mikdash still applies.

The Malbim answers this question, in his work entitled Remazey HaMishkan (Illusions of the Sanctuary), he explains that we each have to build inside of ourselves a mikdash, that each one of us must provide a residence for HaShem’s presence.

Rabbi Chaim of Volozhin, the renowned student of the Gaon of Vilna, said that the commandment to construct a Tabernacle is primarily a personal commandment; every Jew is “a living tabernacle in miniature.” HaShem rests the Shechinah, His Divine Presence, primarily in the human heart.
http://www.betemunah.org/mikdash.html#_Toc404177442
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Re: The temple saying & traditions before Mark.

Post by Solo »

iskander wrote:The Temple as a Body

Shemot (Exodus) 25:8 And you shall make a sanctuary for me; that I may dwell among them.
The Or Hachayim asks why the Torah states “and you shall make a mikdash (Sanctuary) for me”, and then in the next verse it says “the form of the Tabernacle…so shall you do”. Are we talking about the mikdash (Sanctuary) or the Mishkan (Tabernacle)? The Or Hachayim writes that the commandment to make a Mikdash for HaShem is not only referring to the time when Bne Israel were in the desert, but includes all of Jewish history from the time that we were in the desert to the time that we entered eretz Israel. He writes that when the Jewish people are in eretz Israel, and even in a time of Galut (exile), the mitzva to build the mikdash still applies.

The Malbim answers this question, in his work entitled Remazey HaMishkan (Illusions of the Sanctuary), he explains that we each have to build inside of ourselves a mikdash, that each one of us must provide a residence for HaShem’s presence.

Rabbi Chaim of Volozhin, the renowned student of the Gaon of Vilna, said that the commandment to construct a Tabernacle is primarily a personal commandment; every Jew is “a living tabernacle in miniature.” HaShem rests the Shechinah, His Divine Presence, primarily in the human heart.
Why are we bringing a view of the seventeenth century into this, Iskander ?

Best,
Jiri



http://www.betemunah.org/mikdash.html#_Toc404177442[/quote]
iskander
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Re: The temple saying & traditions before Mark.

Post by iskander »

Solo wrote:
iskander wrote:The Temple as a Body

Shemot (Exodus) 25:8 And you shall make a sanctuary for me; that I may dwell among them.
The Or Hachayim asks why the Torah states “and you shall make a mikdash (Sanctuary) for me”, and then in the next verse it says “the form of the Tabernacle…so shall you do”. Are we talking about the mikdash (Sanctuary) or the Mishkan (Tabernacle)? The Or Hachayim writes that the commandment to make a Mikdash for HaShem is not only referring to the time when Bne Israel were in the desert, but includes all of Jewish history from the time that we were in the desert to the time that we entered eretz Israel. He writes that when the Jewish people are in eretz Israel, and even in a time of Galut (exile), the mitzva to build the mikdash still applies.

The Malbim answers this question, in his work entitled Remazey HaMishkan (Illusions of the Sanctuary), he explains that we each have to build inside of ourselves a mikdash, that each one of us must provide a residence for HaShem’s presence.

Rabbi Chaim of Volozhin, the renowned student of the Gaon of Vilna, said that the commandment to construct a Tabernacle is primarily a personal commandment; every Jew is “a living tabernacle in miniature.” HaShem rests the Shechinah, His Divine Presence, primarily in the human heart.
Why are we bringing a view of the seventeenth century into this, Iskander ?

Best,
Jiri



http://www.betemunah.org/mikdash.html#_Toc404177442
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It is easier to understand early Christian religious imagery if one is aware of the religious imagery of other religions .It is better than nothing.
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