Nailed: 10 Christian myths that show Jesus never existed

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Nick Peters
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Re: Nailed: 10 Christian myths that show Jesus never existed

Post by Nick Peters »

spin wrote:
stephan happy huller wrote:Nick Peters

Winning a debate with Pete is like winning a gold medal in a race with octogenarians.
This Pete—for the new arrivals—is the person who posts under the over-thought-out and under-whelming name of Leucius Charinus, also known as mountainman and various others across the virtuality.
Ah. Thanks for the clarification. Personally, I'm mainly here because someone else linked to my work and I find Christ-mythers to be amusing, although granted after a few days they become tiresome.
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stephan happy huller
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Re: Nailed: 10 Christian myths that show Jesus never existed

Post by stephan happy huller »

Well Nick, I want to make clear that there is very little about early Christianity that I am certain about anything other than the general worthlessness of modern Christians. Faith is based on habit and an inherited prejudice. When it manifests itself in serious thinkers it should be questioned if not held in contempt. It is not worthy of respect.

The fact you seem so certain about Jesus and his historicity is interesting. I don't subscribe to the 'Jesus myth' hypothesis (whatever that is) because I mistrust groups and moreover feel that a lot of the people who attach themselves to this hypothesis do so as part of an effort to prove Jesus doesn't exist. I think we have to be agnostic about the whole matter of who or what Jesus was. I am not convinced that the earliest Christians venerated him as a man born of a woman. That this view existed in early times is clear but I am not sure that it was the original one. But again I am not certain nor do I think any certainty is possible about who or what Jesus was.

Could the whole thing have been a myth? I don't know. It seems more likely to me that there must have been a historical person at the heart of the Christian tradition. But probability isn't certainty.
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PhilosopherJay
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Re: Nailed: 10 Christian myths that show Jesus never existed

Post by PhilosopherJay »

Hi Bernard,

There is no equivalency of evidence between Socrates/Plato and Jesus.
We have at least three independent sources making claims about the existence of Socrates - Xenophon - a military general famous for his history of his mercenary expedition in Asia Minor called "Anabasis" and Aristophanes, the most famous comic playwright of ancient Greece. We have numerous references to him by Greek orators of the next generation.
As far as Plato is concerned, Aristotle talks of his theories and books (as well as Socrates) in a number of his works. Take away Socrates or Plato and the entire fabric of 5th and 4th century BCE Greek history is destroyed and all subsequent history. Take away Jesus and nothing of 1st century history is disturbed one iota. It is like comparing Mickey Mouse (Walt Disney Cartoon) and Mickey Mantle (New York Yankee baseball player). If Mickey Mouse was a fictional character, nothing in history as we know it is disturbed (although fictional, Mickey Mouse has had an amazing influence on American culture). If Mickey Mantle was a fictional character, it means the entire game of baseball and all the games played would be fictional and generally all of New York City history must be fictional, which means most of world history is fictional.

I see a rock outside my window. If it is not really there, but just a reflective trick of sunset, nothing in the world changes very much. If the city I live in does not exist, that's a real problem.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Bernard Muller wrote:
A primary source is a document or physical object which was written or created during the time under study. These sources were present during an experience or time period and offer an inside view of a particular event. Some types of primary sources include: • ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS (excerpts or translations acceptable): Diaries, speeches, manuscripts, letters, interviews, news film footage, autobiographies, official records
• CREATIVE WORKS: Poetry, drama, novels, music, art
• RELICS OR ARTIFACTS: Pottery, furniture, clothing, buildings
Examples of primary sources include: • Diary of Anne Frank - Experiences of a Jewish family during WWII
• The Constitution of Canada - Canadian History
• A journal article reporting NEW research or findings
• Weavings and pottery - Native American history
• Plato's Republic - Women in Ancient Greece

What is a secondary source?
A secondary source interprets and analyzes primary sources. These sources are one or more steps removed from the event. Secondary sources may have pictures, quotes or graphics of primary sources in them. Some types of seconday sources include: • PUBLICATIONS: Textbooks, magazine articles, histories, criticisms, commentaries, encyclopedias
Examples of secondary sources include: • A journal/magazine article which interprets or reviews previous findings
• A history textbook
• A book about the effects of WWI
Thank you for answering one of my several questions.

Primary source: Plato's Republic oldest manuscript is dated 895 CE. Do you still accept that as primary evidence?
How do you know that Plato existed? (his main biographer was Diogenes Laertius who wrote half a millenium after Plato's alleged times)
If he did, how do you know he wrote "Republic" and that book is a true description of women in ancient Greece?
Plato's name does not appear in his (alleged) writings, which are not dated. The author is never saying he heard Socrates' dialogues himself. It is widely thought that these dialogues were made up in order to expose the author's philosophy by using Socrates (himself a little known figure). That's no different of the gospel authors using Jesus to expose their views.
Paul wrote letters also. Letters are original documents even if, according to your proposed definition, not the initially written ones (because translations are acceptable as original document).

Secondary source: The Pauline epistles got commented upon well before Eusebius' times (but you are going to deny Irenaeus' existence, among all others placed in time before Eusebius). Why not denying as existing all the early witnesses of Plato?

All I am saying is your proposed criteria would accept Paul's epistles, but these criteria are far from being foolproof. Example: 6 epistles of the Pauline Corpus are generally admitted by critical scholars as not written by Paul. The same goes for several writings attributed to Plato but considered spurious.
In order that the gospels, "Dear Paul" and Acts are primary sources for Jesus, we need evidence that they were written in the 1st century.
I presented evidence for the dating of gMark: no comment from you.
That they were both figures who make guest appearances in a fabricated Holy Writ by later regimes in order to unite a militaristically acquired empire is quite possible and IMO likely.
Most empires are militaristically acquired. And the Roman empire existed before the dawn of Christianity. And Constantine united the Roman empire through military force, not through Christianity.
Christians were still a minority in the empire (most of them in the eastern part) when Constantine saw fit to accept Christians as not of the persecutable kind. Then he made sure that those Christians were not a source of conflict by being divided into sects. So he pushed for their unity, with a catholic/orthodox church emerging from that.
So I think you are making way too much of that Constantine, and him using Christianity as a way to unite his empire.

Cordially, Bernard
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Blood
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Re: Nailed: 10 Christian myths that show Jesus never existed

Post by Blood »

Nick Peters wrote:
spin wrote:
stephan happy huller wrote:Nick Peters

Winning a debate with Pete is like winning a gold medal in a race with octogenarians.
This Pete—for the new arrivals—is the person who posts under the over-thought-out and under-whelming name of Leucius Charinus, also known as mountainman and various others across the virtuality.
Ah. Thanks for the clarification. Personally, I'm mainly here because someone else linked to my work and I find Christ-mythers to be amusing, although granted after a few days they become tiresome.
You've apparently found the wrong forum. This is the Biblical Criticism & History Forum, not the "Christ Myther" forum.
“The only sensible response to fragmented, slowly but randomly accruing evidence is radical open-mindedness. A single, simple explanation for a historical event is generally a failure of imagination, not a triumph of induction.” William H.C. Propp
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: Nailed: 10 Christian myths that show Jesus never existed

Post by Leucius Charinus »

Nick Peters wrote: ...I find Christ-mythers to be amusing ....
Acts of John wrote:
.... Sometimes when I meant to touch him [Jesus], I met with a material and solid body;
but at other times when I felt him, his substance was immaterial and incorporeal, as if it did not exist at all ...

And I often wished, as I walked with him, to see his footprint, whether it appeared on the ground
(for I saw him as it were raised up from the earth), and I never saw it
. (§ 93)
Nick Peters wrote: ......., although granted after a few days they become tiresome.
Isn't it marvellous how the gnostic and docetic heretics were pronounced upon in very unfavourable terms by the canonical "believers"?
A "cobbler of fables" [Augustine]; "Leucius is the disciple of the devil" [Decretum Gelasianum]; and his books "should be utterly swept away and burned" [Pope Leo I]; they are the "source and mother of all heresy" [Photius]
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Nailed: 10 Christian myths that show Jesus never existed

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

stephan happy huller wrote:The fact you seem so certain about Jesus and his historicity is interesting. I don't subscribe to the 'Jesus myth' hypothesis (whatever that is) because I mistrust groups and moreover feel that a lot of the people who attach themselves to this hypothesis do so as part of an effort to prove Jesus doesn't exist. ...

But again I am not certain nor do I think any certainty is possible about who or what Jesus was.

Could the whole thing have been a myth? I don't know. It seems more likely to me that there must have been a historical person at the heart of the Christian tradition. But probability isn't certainty.
Hi ! Sorry, my English ist not so good, but in Germany we have not so a great forum and so I´m here ;-)

I like the question. I have no interest to hear or argue that Jesus was a myth or that Jesus was a historical person. I just try to understand the problems of these two options.

So what's your real feeling about it, Stephan? Is it above all Occam's razor? Cause it´s easier to understand the rise of christianity with a historical Jesus and hard to understand the sense of a invention of a fictitious Jesus? Or is there a little more?
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Nailed: 10 Christian myths that show Jesus never existed

Post by Peter Kirby »

Glad to see you posting here! Thanks for your thoughtful comments and questions on my blog.

I do agree that it is a fascinating question. Can anyone really come up with a comparable historical riddle from antiquity? For someone whose interest is more in the whys and wherefores than in the actual conclusion behind the Q.E.D., there really is nothing better than the subject of Christian origins... perhaps especially because the question of human subjectivity in historical study looms so large.
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
Bernard Muller
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Re: Nailed: 10 Christian myths that show Jesus never existed

Post by Bernard Muller »

Jay wrote:
There is no equivalency of evidence between Socrates/Plato and Jesus.
We have at least three independent sources making claims about the existence of Socrates - Xenophon - a military general famous for his history of his mercenary expedition in Asia Minor called "Anabasis" and Aristophanes, the most famous comic playwright of ancient Greece. We have numerous references to him by Greek orators of the next generation.
As far as Plato is concerned, Aristotle talks of his theories and books (as well as Socrates) in a number of his works. Take away Socrates or Plato and the entire fabric of 5th and 4th century BCE Greek history is destroyed and all subsequent history.
I have no doubt Plato and Socrates existed. I was just making a quick point that according to the criteria of LC, Plato's existence can be doubted and Paul's one accepted.
I would never say, if Socrates existed, so Jesus also existed.
However I can see some analogies between Socrates & Jesus, and Plato & Paul, and the treatment of Socrates by Plato as compared with the one of Jesus by Paul.

Cordially, Bernard
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avi
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Re: Nailed: 10 Christian myths that show Jesus never existed

Post by avi »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:I like the question. I have no interest to hear or argue that Jesus was a myth or that Jesus was a historical person. I just try to understand the problems of these two options.
Wonderful English!!! Wish I could write German half as well as you express yourself in my native language. Are you also a champion singer living in Nurnberg?
Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:Cause it´s easier to understand the rise of christianity with a historical Jesus and hard to understand the sense of a invention of a fictitious Jesus? Or is there a little more?
Two questions, to assist in answering your question, by yourself, both addressing the concept of "an historical Jesus", above:

1. Did any laboratory confirm the DNA testing of Clark Kent? Did it then become easier to explain "the rise of" interest in Superman, because of the proven authenticity of Kent's DNA?

2. Is it easier to explain the huge temples in Syria, and throughout the Greek Empire, as well as entire cities named in honor of Herakles, based on the presumed fact of Herakles having genuinely defeated, in a wrestling match, the historic demigod Ἀνταῖος:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antaeus

Does it assist you, in explaining the "rise of" belief in the divinity of Herakles, to know that Anteus had a daughter, named Alceis, a trophy bride, who represented the prize won in a footrace by Alexidamus?

A huge collection of trivial details does not convert a legend into a genuine human.
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Nailed: 10 Christian myths that show Jesus never existed

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

avi wrote: A huge collection of trivial details does not convert a legend into a genuine human.
Yes it´s true, but I think it´s not so easy to judge a concret case. Maybe you know William Tell, the great folk hero of Switzerland. It seems that the legend of William Tell has at first glance a historical background, but apparantly not. In contrast it´s very unlikely that the myth of the holy grail have it, but then we learn that a lot of details has a close link to historical persons and places.
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