Paul’s Third Heaven Revisited

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Secret Alias
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Re: Paul’s Third Heaven Revisited

Post by Secret Alias »

The Marcionites held fast to the idea that there were three heavens. Eznik clearly identifies this as the abode of the Father. But far more significantly he makes clear that the Marcionites developed their understanding from the Hebrew text of the Pentateuch:
But first, where did Marcion get the idea of three heavens? It was because Moses said two heavens, but as the sectarians wander in all things, so also in this (point) because one said ten heavens, another seven, Marcion three, and, they want to establish their error in scripture, because these books often speak of 'the heavens' and 'the heaven of heavens.' When the sectarian are by no one restrained, iquite apart from the holy books the wander; and then, that is why they are at risk in the holy books they take refuge. For we find 'heaven' and 'heaven of heavens' in (our) Scripture. But it is because in the Hebrew language one can not say 'heaven,' as in the Syriac language (it says) no water, or sky, but a plural said. And there it is evident that by the Septuagint (it was) translated (well) in Greek, they say: 'From the beginning God made heaven and earth,' showing (that question) of a (single) heaven, and in the Syriac language, as we can not say heaven, it says: 'From the beginning God made the heavens and the element earth element.' Although we can not say the singular skies, however, saying hain, that is to say, 'element,' the translation states as part of the sky. In addition, the firmament, which is separated from water, the Septuagint translated heaven where it is obvious that the sky above and the sky are two indoor air, and not three or more." [Eznik Refutation, Marcion 7]
The system of three heavens is attested in Jewish sources: in T. Levi (α) 2:6–10; Midr. Pss. 114:2; and 2 Cor 12:2 and Apoc. Sedr. 2:3–5, where visionaries arrive to the third heaven, and no higher heaven is mentioned. For the Apocalypse of Sedrach it is probable that the third heaven is the highest, since there the visionary can “speak to God face to face” (2:4). The three stages of the as- cent probably also appear in 1 En. 14 (the fiery wall of 14:9 and two concentric houses in 14:10–17).

Bousset traced the threefold celestial system back to the Persian model of the three firmaments with the Paradise located above them.469 Zoroastrians believed that a just soul crosses three levels (even called “heavens”) in order to reach the highest divine realm. The scheme may even be older, since although the typical ancient Near Eastern systems normally had only one heaven, Enuma Elish has more than one level above the sky, and the three heavens system (parallel there to three terrestrial surfaces) is also attested among other multicelelstial systems systems in Mesopotamia (see Akkadian texts in KAR 307 and OA 8196). Some interpret the biblical expression, shamayi h'shamayim ; “heaven of heavens [in dual. tant.]” as referring to the Babylonian conception of the celestial realm divided to “the upper,” “the middle,” and “the upper heavens” inhabited by Anu (cf. the terminology of T. Levi 2:7, 3:1, and 3:4 below).

This is clearly the logic of the Marcionites as laid out by Eznik. With respect to וּשְׁמֵי הַשָּׁמָיִם it may refer to two or three heavens understood as “heaven of heaven” or “heaven of heavens” (Deut 10:14; 1 Kgs 8:27; Neh 9:6; Ps 148:4; 2 Chr 2:5; 6:18).482 Thus it was interpreted by R. Yehudah bar Ilai: “There are two heavens, as it is written, 'Heaven, heaven of heaven, earth and everything in it, all belong to God' [Deut 10:14]” (b. Hag. 12b; cf. Deut. Rab. 2.32 (6:4); Midr. Pss. 114:2 knows of both variations: the concept of two heavens based on Ps 68:34(33): “who rids upon the heaven of ancient heaven,” and the alternative view that there are three heavens, referring to “the heavens [understood as dual] and the heaven of heavens [above them]” of 1 Kgs 8:27.

Heaven is mentioned several times in the first chapter of Genesis. It appears in the first verse as a creation of God. His dividing the light from the darkness in verses 4 and 5 this has been interpreted as the separation of heaven into two sections: day (God's throne) and night (where our universe is contained). In verse 8 heaven refers to the atmosphere over the earth in which birds fly, and in verse 14 it's the setting for the celestial lights, later identified (verse 16) as the sun, moon and stars. Shamayi h'shamayim (םשמיה שמי or "Heaven of Heavens") is mentioned in such passages as Genesis 28:12, Deuteronomy 10:14 and 1 Kings 8:27 as a distinctly spiritual realm containing (or being traveled by) angels and God.

3 Baruch has the same concept. As noted earlier the stages of Enoch's tour in 1 En. 14:8–18 can also be interpreted according to this model: heaven, “house,” and the second “house” with the Throne corresponding to the supercelestial realm. In the Ethiopic Apoc. Pet. 17 Jesus ascends to the second heaven with Moses and Elijah (however, there are may be more heavens). The scheme most similar to this understanding of 3 Baruch is brought in the Nag Hammadi Apocryphon of James, where disciples follow Jesus through the first two heavens and are not allowed to the third.
Last edited by Secret Alias on Sat Apr 30, 2016 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Paul’s Third Heaven Revisited

Post by Secret Alias »

The Jewish religion is rooted in the Pentateuch which was written when the Hebrews (Jews and Samaritans) were under the rule of the Persians. Not surprisingly their understanding of the universe is a mix of Babylonian and Persian elements.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Paul’s Third Heaven Revisited

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And that's why Biblical scholarship is like playing horseshoes ...
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
outhouse
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Re: Paul’s Third Heaven Revisited

Post by outhouse »

Secret Alias wrote:The Jewish religion is rooted in the Pentateuch which was written when the Hebrews (Jews and Samaritans) were under the rule of the Persians. Not surprisingly their understanding of the universe is a mix of Babylonian and Persian elements.
Sure Persian rule influenced Jewish thinking.

But Christians were perverting Judaism, context had the possibility to change dramatically. And we see that with different opinions on third heaven.


And different context here.
Paul's vision of Third Heaven is a continuation of his conflict with the Superapostles in the previous chapter, and that the material comes not from his own teaching, but in reply to material similar to Apocalypse of Moses being transmitted by the Superapostles to the Corinthians
And here
Four allusions to the Apocalypse of Moses occur in close proximity in 2 Corinthians.[8][9] The allusions are (i) "Satan as an angel of light",[10] (ii) the distinction of Satan and the serpent as two beings,[11][12] (iii) "Third Heaven" [13] (iv) "Paradise",[14] The connection to this Jewish material has led to discussion about whether Paul accepted these traditions
Secret Alias
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Re: Paul’s Third Heaven Revisited

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“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Adam
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Re: Paul’s Third Heaven Revisited

Post by Adam »

No comeback from outhouse on his extensive relevant curriculum.
No doubt SA went too far. How about a more evidence-based estimation? While not seminary-trained, he did have UPPER-DIVISON course(s) in New Testament. That was enough to give him a life-long (not necessarily very long thus far) interest in NT exegesis driving him to read the top pop selections on early Christianity. Some books that fit his biases within contemporary scholarship he will even buy and pore over. (The latter is being generous; he never quotes anything, therefore he never has anything on hand?)
andrewcriddle
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Re: Paul’s Third Heaven Revisited

Post by andrewcriddle »

StephenGoranson wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2016 5:31 am The proposed identification of a Coptic version of 2 (Slavonic) Enoch from Qasr Ibrim has been questioned:
“The Angel of Tartarus and the Supposed Coptic Fragments of 2 Enoch,” Böttrich, Christfried, Early Christianity, Volume 4, Number 4, December 2013, pp. 509-521(13).
If the coptic fragments genuinely come from 2 Enoch they provide evidence of the early existence of the short version of 2 Enoch. Böttrich has argued that the long version is original and the short version very late. If the coptic fragments are genuinely from 2 Enoch it would disprove Böttrich's hypothesis

Andrew Criddle
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Re: Paul’s Third Heaven Revisited

Post by andrewcriddle »

andrewcriddle wrote: Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:20 am
StephenGoranson wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2016 5:31 am The proposed identification of a Coptic version of 2 (Slavonic) Enoch from Qasr Ibrim has been questioned:
“The Angel of Tartarus and the Supposed Coptic Fragments of 2 Enoch,” Böttrich, Christfried, Early Christianity, Volume 4, Number 4, December 2013, pp. 509-521(13).
If the coptic fragments genuinely come from 2 Enoch they provide evidence of the early existence of the short version of 2 Enoch. Böttrich has argued that the long version is original and the short version very late. If the coptic fragments are genuinely from 2 Enoch it would disprove Böttrich's hypothesis

Andrew Criddle
I've been reading Böttrich's article. His main point is that the coptic fragment purportedly representing chapter 37 of 2 Enoch probably reads (the word is incompletely preserved) one of the angels of Tartarus this agrees with the Charles/Forbes translation of 2 Enoch however this is a very problematic rendering of a phrase that should prima-facie be rendered one of the angels of horror or something similar. Böttrich is troubled to find apparent support of a very problematic english rendering of a difficult slavonic phrase in a coptic fragment.

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John T
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Re: Paul’s Third Heaven Revisited

Post by John T »

Secret Alias wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2016 1:38 pm This is why it is so frustrating to deal with inferior minds. I have been tested and confirmed to have a high IQ. ...Unlike you I have a vast knowledge of primary sources related to early Christianity. You have opinions based almost entirely on an undergraduate course you must have taken some time ago.

IMO, Paul is boasting he is smarter/superior than the super-apostles. Paul is talking about how the body and soul of Adam went to two different places of paradise as found in: Apocalypse of Moses.
Paul's special revelation takes him to the 3 level of heaven but he is not sure if his soul and body were separated like Adam.

Here is a brief summary of the different levels of heaven and locations of paradise found in: Apocalypse of Moses.

There are seven heavens of paradise (XXXV). The soul of Adam was lifted up to the 3 level but not the highest level (XXXVII). His soul was to be kept in the third level of heaven until the resurrection.

xxxvii 4 "And he stayed there three hours, lying down, and thereafter the Father of all, sitting on his holy throne stretched out his hand, and took Adam and handed him over to the archangel Michael saying: 'Lift him up into Paradise unto the third Heaven, and leave him there until that fearful day of my reckoning, which I will make in the world.' Then Michael took Adam and left 6 him where God told him. "

xli 1 "And God called and said, 'Adam, Adam.' And the body answered from the earth and said: 'Here am I, Lord.' And God saith to him: 'I told 2 thee (that) earth thou art and to earth shalt thou return. Again I promise to thee the Resurrection; I will raise thee up in the Resurrection with every man who is of thy seed.'"

http://wesley.nnu.edu/sermons-essays-bo ... -of-moses/

But what do I know? I'm just a nincompoop compared to the high IQ of SA. :cheeky:
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."...Jonathan Swift
Secret Alias
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Re: Paul’s Third Heaven Revisited

Post by Secret Alias »

Yes some of those comments don't read back as well as they sounded in my head while agitated. Good thing I have a low threshold for shame.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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