Paul’s Third Heaven Revisited

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Secret Alias
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Re: Paul’s Third Heaven Revisited

Post by Secret Alias »

“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Paul’s Third Heaven Revisited

Post by Secret Alias »

Why are the debates about the Persian origins of the Christian cosmos when Celsus tells us this already? Oh I forgot he was an "enemy" of Christianity!
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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DCHindley
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Re: Paul’s Third Heaven Revisited

Post by DCHindley »

Secret Alias wrote:Three heavens = Persian cosmos https://books.google.com/books?id=erB9B ... an&f=false
From what I am able to garner from Google searches, the most thorough examination of Iranian cosmology is by Antonio Panaino, “Uranographia Iranica I: The Three Heavens in the Zoroastrian Tradition and the Mesopotamian Background” in Rika Gyselen, ed. Au carrefour des religions. Mélanges offerts à Philippe Gignoux. (Res orientales 7). Bures-sur-Yvette: Groupe pour l’étude de la civilisation du Moyen-Orient, 1995, pp. 205-225.

If I am understanding things correctly, early Iranian thought envisioned three heavens where the stars are in the first one, the sun & moon in the 2nd & 3rd (not sure which order), with paradise beyond the third heaven. That's not quite the same thing as what Paul is made to say in the Pauline epistles and Acts.

As for Judean cosmology as found in the Books of Enoch, J. T. Milik, The Books of Enoch, describes a "map of the world" of the Enochic Astronomical Book, ch. 72-82, specifically ch. 77 (fig 3, p. 18), and a "map of the world" of the Enochic Book of Watchers, ch. 1-36 (fig 5, p. 40), and interprets these to refer to three "supra-terrestrial" spheres.
When this map of the world (Fig, 5) is compared with that of Fig. 3, it can easily be seen that the bipartite division of the 'World' beyond this world (the circular Ocean - seven regions and Paradise) shown in the maps of the Astronomical Book and the Babylonian tablet now becomes distinctly tri-partite (Ocean and Abyss - darkness and fire - Double Paradise). Paradise is thus found in the third supra-terrestrial sphere (cf. 2 Cor 12:2-4). (pp. 40-41)


My first impression when reading this in the 1980s was that the seven loci common to these maps corresponded roughly with "heavens", but on examining the map on p. 40, it seems that Milik is suggesting that the world (cosmos) is envisioned by the author of the Book of Watchers as being tripartite, with a terrestrial sphere with two loci, a supra-terrestrial sphere with three loci, and a second supra-terrestrial sphere beyond that where there are two loci:1) the Mountain of God or paradise of precious mountains, which contains the tree of life, and 2) the Paradise of Righteousness, where we would find the tree of knowledge.

DCH (lawn mower is calling me ...)
Secret Alias
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Re: Paul’s Third Heaven Revisited

Post by Secret Alias »

I've read it both ways - third heaven and then Paradise and Paradise in the third heaven. The point is this is a game of horseshoes. Who's closest wins (until a better shot comes along).
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
outhouse
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Re: Paul’s Third Heaven Revisited

Post by outhouse »

Secret Alias wrote:I've read it both ways - third heaven and then Paradise and Paradise in the third heaven. The point is this is a game of horseshoes. Who's closest wins (until a better shot comes along).

No. it is not horseshoes.

Its context. In the non-canonical Second Book of Enoch, Third Heaven is described as a location "between corruptibility and incorruptibility"


So we look at how the NT plagiarized the OT text to try and understand context.

And in many places it is lost. So in some cases its a matter of atom bombs and horseshoes allegory here. There are often no winners.

BUT I am showing examples you ignore that is outside your window of horseshoes
Secret Alias
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Re: Paul’s Third Heaven Revisited

Post by Secret Alias »

Who fucking cares about 2 Enoch? DCH and I were talking about Paul. The thread is about Paul
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
outhouse
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Re: Paul’s Third Heaven Revisited

Post by outhouse »

Secret Alias wrote:Who fucking cares about 2 Enoch?

Exactly your methodology ignores evidence of how third heaven was interpreted in the late first century by some groups.

So we do.
Secret Alias
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Re: Paul’s Third Heaven Revisited

Post by Secret Alias »

What evidence is there for a relationship between 2 Enoch and Paul?
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
outhouse
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Re: Paul’s Third Heaven Revisited

Post by outhouse »

Secret Alias wrote:What evidence is there for a relationship between 2 Enoch and Paul?
It shows how some groups possibly in the first century viewed the heavens IN DIFFERENT CONTEXT then what you propose.
Secret Alias
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Re: Paul’s Third Heaven Revisited

Post by Secret Alias »

This is why it is so frustrating to deal with inferior minds. I have been tested and confirmed to have a high IQ. I don't know if you have but I suspect your IQ is average or slightly above average. But that isn't the only difference between us. Unlike you I have a vast knowledge of primary sources related to early Christianity. You have opinions based almost entirely on an undergraduate course you must have taken some time ago.

The facts are that the earliest school of interpretation of Paul is likely the Marcionite tradition. It is well known that they understood the third heavens to be 'three heavens' after the manner of the Persians. This is hardly surprising as they are likened to the Persian dualistic religious tradition elsewhere and Celsus's comments about the early (heretical) Christian cosmogeny.

But what is the point of having this discussion with you? Marcion did not come up in that one course you took on early Christianity at the community college near your house.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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