Paul’s Third Heaven Revisited

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robert j
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Re: Paul’s Third Heaven Revisited

Post by robert j »

I do not see the testimony of the early catholic commentators as critical evaluation of such matters.
Secret Alias
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Re: Paul’s Third Heaven Revisited

Post by Secret Alias »

Yes it gets in the way of your own homespun assertions
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Paul’s Third Heaven Revisited

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robert j wrote:I do not see the testimony of the early catholic commentators as critical evaluation of such matters.
They prove that Paul was fooling no one if he was passing off his own revelation as somebody else's. That is what I summoned them to the stand to demonstrate, nothing more. My interpretation of Paul himself here stands or falls on his own words.
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robert j
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Re: Paul’s Third Heaven Revisited

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Ben C. Smith wrote:
robert j wrote:I do not see the testimony of the early catholic commentators as critical evaluation of such matters.
They prove that Paul was fooling no one if he was passing off his own revelation as somebody else's. That is what I summoned them to the stand to demonstrate, nothing more.
"No one" is an awful lot of people. But granted, I'm not aware of any surviving ancient text that provides the contrary opinion --- but that's certainly no surprise.
Ben C. Smith wrote:My interpretation of Paul himself here stands or falls on his own words.
Fair enough.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Paul’s Third Heaven Revisited

Post by Ben C. Smith »

robert j wrote:But granted, I'm not aware of any surviving ancient text that provides the contrary opinion --- but that's certainly no surprise.
Ben C. Smith wrote:My interpretation of Paul himself here stands or falls on his own words.
Fair enough.
Cheers.
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winningedge101
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Re: Paul’s Third Heaven Revisited

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What was Paul's cosmology? Did he think that there was 3 heavens? More?
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DCHindley
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Re: Paul’s Third Heaven Revisited

Post by DCHindley »

winningedge101 wrote:What was Paul's cosmology? Did he think that there was 3 heavens? More?
You know, that is a good question.

We know from the Judean Pseudepigrapha that many thought there were seven, perhaps brought over from Greek cosmology (7 spheres of orbit of the sun moon and planets), with God "residing" in the 7th one (although the Greeks placed the cosmic principals in a place beyond the cosmic realm).

I do not think it is necessary to think that Paul imagined he had gone all the way to the top heaven when he reached the third, but the unutterable words may suggest that, as discussion about God's plans for the world is what most Judean pseudepigrapha thought happened about God (although in the 7th heaven).

Nowhere does Paul suggest that he received a direct meeting with God, so he may not have gone to the top heaven at all. However, as J T Milik pointed out in his The Books of Enoch (1977 I think) the third heaven is where paradise was situated, where the souls of the righteous awaited the final judgment to occur.

I've long felt that under a layer of Christ theology, an original author of the letters of Paul (we can just call him "Paul" for purposes of discussion) was very concerned with whether righteous gentiles would be able to participate in the blessings of the promised land at the end times, and if so, on what terms (members of the people Israel or as "strangers at the gate"). Perhaps Paul felt that it was appropriate that it was there that he receive a revelation from some heavenly messenger that God had predestined him to bring righteous (faithful) gentiles into the corporate body of Israel.

IMHO, it was the editor I suggested above, the one who added the Christ theology, that made it seem that this messenger was a divine entity, Jesus Christ, who I am convinced Paul had not so much as even heard of, even as a mere human being, and much less as a divine agent of the highest God.

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Paul’s Third Heaven Revisited

Post by Ben C. Smith »

DCHindley wrote:However, as J T Milik pointed out in his The Books of Enoch (1977 I think) the third heaven is where paradise was situated, where the souls of the righteous awaited the final judgment to occur.
And there is this from the so-called Apocalypse of Moses:

Then God spake to the archangel(s) Michael, (Gabriel, Uriel, and Raphael): 'Go away to Paradise in the third heaven....

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iskander
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Re: Paul’s Third Heaven Revisited

Post by iskander »

winningedge101 wrote:What was Paul's cosmology? Did he think that there was 3 heavens? More?

it is one stop on the way up from the cave
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winningedge101
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Re: Paul’s Third Heaven Revisited

Post by winningedge101 »

Maybe the first heaven is the atmosphere, second is all of outer space, third is heaven. BOOM biblical hermeneutics complete. ;) ;)
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