Paul’s Third Heaven Revisited

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Bernard Muller
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Re: Paul’s Third Heaven Revisited

Post by Bernard Muller »

Maybe the first heaven is the atmosphere, second is all of outer space, third is heaven.
I made these observations (from http://historical-jesus.info/djp1.html):
>> In 2 Corinthians 12:2-3, Paul claimed to have gone to "third heaven"/"paradise" in order to meet Christ. "paradise" appears to be the equivalent of the heavenly Kingdom, where (good) Christians would join Christ in the future:
2 Corinthians 5:1 NIV "... we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven ..."
Philippians 3:20a NKJV "But our citizenship is in heaven. ..."
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Darby "... and thus we shall be always with [the] Lord."
But where would Jesus reside in the heavens? Close to God, in the highest one:
Romans 8:34 Darby "... Christ who has died, but rather has been [also] raised up; who is also at the right hand of God ..."
Therefore, it is most likely a "three heavens" concept was adopted here.
What about the intermediate heaven, the second one?
That would be the starry firmament (with sun & moon), between the air and God's heaven, as defined in Genesis 1:14,15,17, 15:5, 22:17, 26:4; Exodus 32:13; Deuteronomy 4:19, 10:22, 28:62; 1 Chronicles 27:23; Nehemiah 9:23; Isaiah 13:10; Ezekiel 32:7; Matthew 24:29; Mark 13:25; Hebrews 11:12; Revelation 6:13, 12:1,4. (heaven='ouranos' in LXX and NT) <<

However I doubt that "third" in "third heaven" and "paradise (instead of "heaven") is not from an interpolator.

The first heaven is the air above earth (believed to extend all the way to the moon), the domain of clouds and flying birds.

Cordially, Bernard
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Secret Alias
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Re: Paul’s Third Heaven Revisited

Post by Secret Alias »

The Samaritans believe that Mount Gerizim which is visible is only part of the mountain. The top of the mountain (= where Paradise is) raised up to heaven (the heavens) at the beginning of the (Age of) Disfavor. This is why the third heaven = Paradise. Three heavens is Persian as is most of the earliest Israelite beliefs given that the Torah was written in the Persian period (hence Pardes a Persian loan word is a Persian garden). The myths of Adam beginning life as an angel would make sense if the top of the mountain = Pardes = heaven.
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Kapyong
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Re: Paul’s Third Heaven Revisited

Post by Kapyong »

Gday all :)

It does seem that Paul imagined a three-heaven cosmology :
Image

I drew it like this :
Image

I don't think he had a 9-sphere Ptolemaic model in mind.


Two books contemporary with Paul place Paradise in the Third Heaven - The Life of Adam (and Eve) aka The Book of Adam aka The Revelation of Moses; and 2 Enoch.

2 Enoch also puts the Tree of Life in Paradise, a place that is 'between corruptibility and incorruptibility'. This Tree of Life is where the Lord rests when he 'goes up into Paradise', and it bears 'all fruits'. Yet the Third Heaven is also a 'very terrible place' with 'all manner of tortures' for the wicked.

Both Acts and 1 Peter claim Jesus Christ was crucified on a tree. Some later writers associate him with the tree of life - Teachings of Silvanus, Justin Martyr, Celsus, Hippolytus, and Victorinus.


I think Paul imagined Jesus Christ crucified on the Tree of Life in Paradise in the Third Heaven.


Kapyong
Clive
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Re: Paul’s Third Heaven Revisited

Post by Clive »

I think Paul imagined Jesus Christ crucified on the Tree of Life in Paradise in the Third Heaven.
:-)

Reading Paul from this perspective might have some interesting implications, for example about why he believed death had lost its sting .....

The discussions about Adam .....

The discussions about Jesus coming - is it the first time or a return?

How many misunderstandings are there by reading Paul starting from a Jesus of Nazareth perspective?

What happens by starting with a new Adam, perfect man perspective?
"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
outhouse
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Re: Paul’s Third Heaven Revisited

Post by outhouse »

In the non-canonical Second Book of Enoch, Third Heaven is described as a location "between corruptibility and incorruptibility"
Clive
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Re: Paul’s Third Heaven Revisited

Post by Clive »

Alternative titles: “Book of the Secrets of Enoch”; “Slavonic Book of Enoch”
Second Book of Enoch, also called Slavonic Book of Enoch, pseudepigraphal work whose only extant version is a Slavonic translation of the Greek original. The Slavonic edition is a Christian work, probably of the 7th century ad, but it rests upon an older Jewish work written sometime in the 1st century ad (but before the destruction of the Temple of Jerusalem in ad 70, because there are references to pilgrimages and cultic rituals connected with temple worship). In its apocalyptic and cosmological emphases, the book is similar to First Book of Enoch and may be dependent on it, although II Enoch is recognized as a separate part of the literary tradition surrounding the patriarch Enoch.

The first part of the book (chapters 1–21) deals with Enoch’s journey through the seven tiers of heaven; it thus invites comparisons with descriptions of the heavenly spheres and their inhabitants in the I Enoch and the “Testament of Levi” in Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs. The second section (chapters 22–38) is an explication of the tradition of Enoch’s reception of secret wisdom from God. The final section (chapters 39–68) includes Enoch’s advice to his sons and an account of his life, including his final ascension.

A product of the Greek-speaking Jewish Diaspora centred in Alexandria, Egypt, II Enoch includes many of the motifs characteristic of Hellenistic religious literature: visionary journeys, astrological calculations, a highly developed angelology, personal confrontations with divine beings, and a structural view of heaven.
http://www.britannica.com/topic/Second-Book-of-Enoch
Not clear what your purpose is in asserting non canonical, Revelation has been argued by many to also be non canonical.

What is interesting is it seems to be using a different definition of the heavens. I get the impression we need to be very careful what model a writer is using.
"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
outhouse
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Re: Paul’s Third Heaven Revisited

Post by outhouse »

Clive wrote: http://www.britannica.com/topic/Second-Book-of-Enoch
Not clear what your purpose is in asserting non canonical, Revelation has been argued by many to also be non canonical.

What is interesting is it seems to be using a different definition of the heavens. I get the impression we need to be very careful what model a writer is using.

That's my point.

To many people are calling the map the territory here. And not even looking at the whole map :facepalm:

non canonical was just a description in the text I plagiarized. I thought it was obvious, my mistake.
andrewcriddle
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Re: Paul’s Third Heaven Revisited

Post by andrewcriddle »

Clive wrote:
Alternative titles: “Book of the Secrets of Enoch”; “Slavonic Book of Enoch”
Second Book of Enoch, also called Slavonic Book of Enoch, pseudepigraphal work whose only extant version is a Slavonic translation of the Greek original. The Slavonic edition is a Christian work, probably of the 7th century ad, but it rests upon an older Jewish work written sometime in the 1st century ad (but before the destruction of the Temple of Jerusalem in ad 70, because there are references to pilgrimages and cultic rituals connected with temple worship). In its apocalyptic and cosmological emphases, the book is similar to First Book of Enoch and may be dependent on it, although II Enoch is recognized as a separate part of the literary tradition surrounding the patriarch Enoch.

The first part of the book (chapters 1–21) deals with Enoch’s journey through the seven tiers of heaven; it thus invites comparisons with descriptions of the heavenly spheres and their inhabitants in the I Enoch and the “Testament of Levi” in Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs. The second section (chapters 22–38) is an explication of the tradition of Enoch’s reception of secret wisdom from God. The final section (chapters 39–68) includes Enoch’s advice to his sons and an account of his life, including his final ascension.

A product of the Greek-speaking Jewish Diaspora centred in Alexandria, Egypt, II Enoch includes many of the motifs characteristic of Hellenistic religious literature: visionary journeys, astrological calculations, a highly developed angelology, personal confrontations with divine beings, and a structural view of heaven.
http://www.britannica.com/topic/Second-Book-of-Enoch
Not clear what your purpose is in asserting non canonical, Revelation has been argued by many to also be non canonical.

What is interesting is it seems to be using a different definition of the heavens. I get the impression we need to be very careful what model a writer is using.
FWIW 2 Enoch is now known from fragments of a Coptic Version
See No Longer Slavonic Only

Andrew Criddle
StephenGoranson
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Re: Paul’s Third Heaven Revisited

Post by StephenGoranson »

The proposed identification of a Coptic version of 2 (Slavonic) Enoch from Qasr Ibrim has been questioned:
“The Angel of Tartarus and the Supposed Coptic Fragments of 2 Enoch,” Böttrich, Christfried, Early Christianity, Volume 4, Number 4, December 2013, pp. 509-521(13).
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DCHindley
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Re: Paul’s Third Heaven Revisited

Post by DCHindley »

StephenGoranson wrote:The proposed identification of a Coptic version of 2 (Slavonic) Enoch from Qasr Ibrim has been questioned:
“The Angel of Tartarus and the Supposed Coptic Fragments of 2 Enoch,” Böttrich, Christfried, Early Christianity, Volume 4, Number 4, December 2013, pp. 509-521(13).
It is unfortunate that the Google Books link provided by Andrew Criddle does not include the first 90 pages, where the identification of the fragments is discussed by Joost Hagen.

Just as unfortunately, the other articles all seem to dive into the same old murky waters of 2 Enoch interpretation that has been the case since before even the publication of R H Charles' edition in 1896.

DCH
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