We must know, then, that if Paul is' young in respect to time -- having flourished immediately after the Lord's ascension -- yet his writings depend on the Old Testament, breathing and speaking of them. For faith in Christ and the knowledge of the Gospel are the explanation and fulfilment of the law; and therefore it was said to the Hebrews, "If ye believe not, neither shall you understand;" that is, unless you believe what is prophesied in the law, and oracularly delivered by the law, you will not understand the Old Testament, which He by His coming expounded. [Strom 4.21.134.3 - 4]
Does this jibe with Acts? I don't think so. Acts makes it seem that Jesus ascends, a Jerusalem community develops and eventually Saul the persecutor has his experience on the road to Damscus. 'Immediately' means immediately. Clement has another tradition about Paul. It reminds me of what is hinted in the Marcionite understanding as outlined in De Recta in Deum Fide and Eznik - viz Paul appears immediately (εὐθέως) after the ascension.
ἀκμάσας 'full bloom' coupled with εὐθέως implies an unspeakable revelation came to Paul immediately after the ascension of Jesus.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
As a point of comparison from Epiphanius Panarion:
So when they were called Jessaeans then shortly after the Saviour's ascension (ἐπ' ὀλίγῳ χρόνῳ μετὰ τὴν ἀνάληψιν τοῦ σωτῆρος) and after Mark had preached in Egypt, in those times certain other persons, supposed followers of the apostles, seceded in their turn. I mean the Nazoraeans, whom I am discussing here.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Saul spent several days with the disciples in Damascus. 20 At once (εὐθέως) he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God. 21 All those who heard him were astonished and asked, “Isn’t he the man who raised havoc in Jerusalem among those who call on this name? And hasn’t he come here to take them as prisoners to the chief priests?” 22 Yet Saul grew more and more powerful and baffled the Jews living in Damascus by proving that Jesus is the Messiah.
The ascension happens years earlier at the very beginning of Acts:
Until the day in which he was taken up (ἀνάληψιν), after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments to the apostles whom he had chosen [Acts 1:2]
Last edited by Secret Alias on Sun Apr 10, 2016 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Abraham, accordingly, who through hearing believed the voice, which promised under the oak in Mamre, “I will give this land to thee, and to thy seed,” was either elect or not. But if he was not, how did he straightway (εὐθέως) believe, as it were naturally?
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Could the Pauline ministry have begun 'straightaway' after the ascension because he experienced the heavenly ascent of Jesus? Was the 'third heaven' = Paradise a retelling of the same event.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
The Marcionite understanding of the beginning of the mission of Paul according to Eznik:
And when he had raised him on a cross, they say, he descended into the Harsh and emptied it. And having raised the souls from the middle of it, he led them into the third heaven, to his Father. And the Lord of creatures having become angry, in his anger he rent his robe and the curtain of his temple. And he darkened his sun, and he clothed his world in umber. And in his affliction he dwelt in mourning. Then when Jesus descended a second time in the form of his divinity to the Lord of creatures, he brought a lawsuit against him on account of his death. And when the Lord of the world saw that divinity of Jesus, he discovered that another god apart from himself existed [...], so having fallen down in supplication, he was praying to him: Whereas I sinned and slaughtered you ignorantly because I did not know that you were a god, but rather I considered you a man, let there be given to you in exchange, for revenge, all of those who wish to believe in you to take wheresoever you wish. So Jesus having released him, he carried off Paul from the astonished ones, and he revealed to him their prices, and he sent him forth to preach that we have been brought for a price, and everyone who believes in Jesus has been sold by that Just One to the Good One.
It is uncanny in my mind that Clement and the Marcionites agree that the mission of Paul coincides with the end of missionary activity on the part of Jesus. Paul here serves as the first example of one 'redeemed' by Jesus. His identity in this original Pauline tradition is most intriguing.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
I've illustrated with the Greek that Clement is not saying 'a short time thereafter' but 'straightaway after' - i.e. immediately following, no delay, 'bang bang' - I don't know how to explain this to you given that you have a tradition of not understanding things which get in the way of your inherited presuppositions. Clement is not saying 'a little after' but 'the next fucking thing that happened immediately following this event ...' Like thunder follows lightning, like smell follows fart. Do you get it?
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
More on the Marcionite understanding of Paul being 'carried off' before the crucifixion (and thus somehow 'knew' Jesus prior to the ascension):
And if, as they say, for this Law of the Just One Jesus was solicited judge and mediator, since he was found worthy of death many times over by those laws, because prior to his crucifixion he had carried many off. And not only himself, but he also chose many others from among those same ones, and he sent them off to teach and draw unto him. And not only that much, but also he clothed their might to trample underfoot the army of their Lord, and he threw sword and division into his house, and he kindled a fire in his creatures to the point of curtailing and obstructing this Law of his from the days of John the Baptist. And to announce his own kingdom, many preachers were unleashed to preach, and many reapers to reap what he himself had not sown. And, before anyone had sinned against him, or put him on the cross, or shed his blood, he took his house as booty, and he displaced his kingship, and he was remaining silent and he was not sinning. And how will they say that by his crucifixion he purchased mankind? Because look here! before he had yet ascended the cross that assemblage of many he had snatched to himself. 388. But, they say, those ones he led away as the price of the cures. He cured the sick, and he cleansed the lepers, and he raised the dead, and he strengthened the cripples, and he made the demons fugitives. 389. Let there be a physician. When he cures someone's son, does he not receive wages? Rather, will he demand the cured one in person as the price of that cure? And we will write that the cured ones on account of their benefit were something fitting for him. Indeed, as for those whom he did not cure, why did he entice them and draw them away from their own lord
In other words, I think there are grounds for arguing that Paul may well have seen Jesus in the flesh before the crucifixion, was not a Christian, but that his ascent to the third heaven or his visionary experience happened immediately following the ascension or at least the Passion.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote