Clement on the Dating of Paul's Ministry

[outhouse]

I've illustrated with the Greek that Clement is not saying 'a short time thereafter' but 'straightaway after' - i.e. immediately following, no delay, 'bang bang' - I don't know how to explain this to you given that you have a tradition of not understanding things which get in the way of your inherited presuppositions. Clement is not saying 'a little after' but 'the next fucking thing that happened immediately following this event ...' Like thunder follows lightning, like smell follows fart. Do you get it?

Yes I understand your taking a late second century tradition from certain sects with different opinions on theology, OVER mid first century traditions from Pauls communities.

[Secret Alias]

What is the first century tradition about Paul that you are referencing?

[Secret Alias]

And remember as Clement does make reference to Acts elsewhere in his writings his preference here and elsewhere for traditions that contract Acts is important. It tells us that (a) he didn't hold Acts as authoritative about Paul and (b) the other traditions were deemed to be more authoritative.

[outhouse]

What is the first century tradition about Paul that you are referencing?

Do you go against scholars who place the 7 Pauline traditions to the mid 50's ?

Overcoming Pauline traditions of early persecution prior to conversion is going to be tougher then you think

[Secret Alias]

There are all kinds of scholars with all kinds of ideas. The question of the dating of Paul's activities have little in the way of supporting evidence outside of the documents of the Church. I don't think any Pauline scholars have ever seen the word 'straightaway' in the Stromata. It's not because of some organized conspiracy or anything. It's just a single word in the middle of a bland passage that doesn't get a lot of attention. If I am right about a connection with the Marcionite tradition it supports what is said there. The Marcionite tradition is the oldest Pauline tradition, older than Acts. The testimony would deserve further scholarly attention.

[Secret Alias]

Pauline traditions of early persecution prior to conversion

It would likely imply that Paul was in the party or associated with the party who crucified Jesus.

[andrewcriddle]

We must know, then, that if Paul is' young in respect to time -- having flourished immediately after the Lord's ascension -- yet his writings depend on the Old Testament, breathing and speaking of them. For faith in Christ and the knowledge of the Gospel are the explanation and fulfilment of the law; and therefore it was said to the Hebrews, "If ye believe not, neither shall you understand;" that is, unless you believe what is prophesied in the law, and oracularly delivered by the law, you will not understand the Old Testament, which He by His coming expounded. [Strom 4.21.134.3 - 4]

ἰστέον μέντοι ὅτι, εἰ καὶ ὁ Παῦλος τοῖς χρόνοις νεάζει, εὐθέως μετὰ τὴν τοῦ κυρίου ἀνάληψιν ἀκμάσας, ἀλλ' οὖν ἡ γραφὴ αὐτῷ ἐκ τῆς παλαιᾶς ἤρτηται διαθήκης, ἐκεῖθεν ἀνα πνέουσα καὶ λαλοῦσα· ἡ γὰρ εἰς Χριστὸν πίστις καὶ ἡ τοῦ εὐαγγελίου γνῶσις ἐξήγησίς ἐστι καὶ τοῦ νόμου πλήρωσις. καὶ διὰ τοῦτο εἴρηται τοῖς Ἑβραίοις· ἐὰν μὴ πιστεύσητε, οὐ μὴ συνῆτε, τουτέστιν ἐὰν μὴ πιστεύσητε τῷ διὰ νόμου προφητευθέντι καὶ ὑπὸ νόμου
θεσπισθέντι, οὐ συνήσετε τὴν διαθήκην τὴν παλαιάν, ἣν αὐτὸς κατὰ τὴν ἰδίαν ἐξηγήσατο παρουσίαν.

Does this jibe with Acts? I don't think so. Acts makes it seem that Jesus ascends, a Jerusalem community develops and eventually Saul the persecutor has his experience on the road to Damscus. 'Immediately' means immediately. Clement has another tradition about Paul. It reminds me of what is hinted in the Marcionite understanding as outlined in De Recta in Deum Fide and Eznik - viz Paul appears immediately (εὐθέως) after the ascension.

ἀκμάσας 'full bloom' coupled with εὐθέως implies an unspeakable revelation came to Paul immediately after the ascension of Jesus.

It is possible that Clement just means that according to Acts Paul is around (participating in the execution of Stephen) from very shortly after the ascension. He may mean that Paul enters the story very shortly after the ascension while having his Damascus road experience a year or so later.

Andrew Criddle

[outhouse]

. The Marcionite tradition is the oldest Pauline tradition, older than Acts. .

Even if correct you will not be successful placing Marcion before Acts.

Not only that Pauls own communities traditions is the oldest.

The testimony would deserve further scholarly attention

Good luck

The question of the dating of Paul's activities have little in the way of supporting evidence outside of the documents of the Church

Regardless, they have historicity as being from the 50's, and two late second century traditions, "if" your correct have no chance of competing against the original Pauline text.


Even giving you the benefit of doubt on the rare interpretation, it is so far removed from the time period, one can only hope to change apologetic theology, not historicity.

[Secret Alias]

Andrew can you think of an example of εὐθύς being applied to an event which followed another by years?

εὐθύς ,
1. of Time, straightway, forthwith, Pi.O.8.41; “ὁ δ᾽ εὐ. ὡς ἤκουσε” A.Pers.361; “ὁ δ᾽ εὐ. ἐξῴμωξεν” S.Aj.317; “τὸ μὲν εὐ. τὸ δὲ καὶ διανοούμενον” Th.1.1, cf. 5.3, 7.77; joined with other adverbial words, “τάχα δ᾽ εὐ. ἰών” Pi.P.4.83; “εὐ. κατὰ τάχος” Th.6.101; εὐ. παραχρῆμα (v. sub παραχρῆμα）“; εὐ. ἀπ᾽ αρχῆς” Ar.Pax84 (anap.); “εὐ. ἐξ ἀρχῆς” X.Cyr.7.2.16; ἐξ ἀρχῆς εὐ. Arist.Pol.1287b10; “εὐ. κατ᾽ ἀρχάς” Pl.Ti.24b; “ἀφ᾽ ἑσπέρας εὐ. ἤδη” Luc. Gall.1; εὐ. ἐκ νέου, ἐκ παιδός, even from one's youth, Pl.R.485d, 519a; “εὐ. ἐκ παιδίου” X.Cyr.1.6.20: with a part., “εὐ. νέοι ὄντες” Th.2.39; “εὐ. ἥκων” X.An.4.7.2; “εὐ. ἀπεκτονώς” D.23.127; τοῦ θέρους εὐ. ἀρχομένου just at the beginning of summer, Th.2.47; ἀρξάμενος εὐ. καθισταμένου [τοῦ πολέμου] from the very beginning of the war, Id.1.1; εὐ. ἀποβεβηκότι immediately on disembarking, Id.4.43; εὐ. γενομένοις at the moment of birth, Pl.Tht.186b: metaph., at once, naturally, ὑπάρχει εὐθὺς γένη ἔχον τὸ ὄν Being falls at once into genera, Arist. Metaph.1004a5, cf.Po.1452a14: with Subst., “ἡ τῶν Ἰταλιωτῶν εὐθὺς φυγή” Hdn.8.1.5.
2. less freq. in a local relation, ὑπὲρ τῆς πόλεως εὐ. just above the city, Th.6.96; παρ᾽ αὐτὴν εὐ. ὁ ἔσπλους ἐστίν directly past it (the mole), Id.8.90; ἐγγύτατα τούτου εὐ. ἐχομένη immediately adjoining this, ibid., cf. Theoc.25.23; εὐ. ἐπὶ τὴν γέφυραν Foed. ap. Th.4.118, cf. X.Cyr.7.2.1,2, 2.4.24, Ages.1.29; τὴν εὐ. Ἄργους κἀπιδαυρίας ὁδόν the road leading straight to Argos, E.Hipp.1197 (condemned by Phot.); “εὐ. Λυκείου” Pherecr.110, cf. Arist.HA498a32, etc.
3. of Manner, directly, simply, v.l. in Pl.Men.100a.
4. like αὐτίκα 11: for instance, to take the first example that occurs, “ὥσπερ ζῷον εὐθύς” Arist.Pol.1277a6, cf. Cael.284b10, etc.; “οἷον εὐθύς” Cleom. 1.1, D.Chr.11.145.

[Secret Alias]

When Xerxes heard this (εὐθὺς ὡς ἤκουσεν), instead of seeing the trap the Greeks set on him, or even the hatred the Gods had against him, ordered his captains to get their ships ready. And then, he told them that the very moment the sun withdrew his rays from the earth and darkness covered the sky, they should line up all their ships in three ranks and guard the whispering waters of the passes and, as well, to also surround Ajax’s island, so that if the Greek ships escaped their death by some secret passage or other, then, they should all be caught and beheaded.