Top suspects that could have invented the historical Jesus?
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Secret Alias
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Re: Top suspects that could have invented the historical Jes
Elior is alright in my books. She knows her stuff which is Jewish mysticism. She is extremely competent in Hebrew which more than I can say for many other religious scholars.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Secret Alias
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Re: Top suspects that could have invented the historical Jes
From Wikipedia:
Elior claims that the Essenes, the supposed authors of the Dead Sea Scrolls never existed. She contends (as have Lawrence Schiffman, Moshe Goshen-Gottstein, Chaim Menachem Rabin, and others) that the Essenes were really the renegade sons of Zadok, a priestly caste banished from the Temple of Jerusalem by Greek rulers in the 2nd century BC. She conjectures that the scrolls were taken with them when they were banished. "In Qumran, the remnants of a huge library were found," Elior says, with some of the early Hebrew texts dating back to the 2nd century BC. Until the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, the earliest known version of the Old Testament dated back to the 9th century AD. "The scrolls attest to a biblical priestly heritage," says Elior, who speculates that the scrolls were hidden in Qumran for safekeeping.[
Elior claims that the Essenes, the supposed authors of the Dead Sea Scrolls never existed. She contends (as have Lawrence Schiffman, Moshe Goshen-Gottstein, Chaim Menachem Rabin, and others) that the Essenes were really the renegade sons of Zadok, a priestly caste banished from the Temple of Jerusalem by Greek rulers in the 2nd century BC. She conjectures that the scrolls were taken with them when they were banished. "In Qumran, the remnants of a huge library were found," Elior says, with some of the early Hebrew texts dating back to the 2nd century BC. Until the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, the earliest known version of the Old Testament dated back to the 9th century AD. "The scrolls attest to a biblical priestly heritage," says Elior, who speculates that the scrolls were hidden in Qumran for safekeeping.[
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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maryhelena
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Re: Top suspects that could have invented the historical Jes
Be generous - harping on what newspapers wrote is hardly worthy of serious critique of her theory....StephenGoranson wrote:Prof. Elior did correct herself after all these interviews.
Not a worthy argument to make regarding a Jewish scholar who has spend years on the DSS....
Perhaps worth considering: if a person is persuaded that X did not exist (perhaps not rare for some in this forum), X being Essenes in this case, one might not bother learning too much about X before promoting an alternative.
Easy - it's on an amazon comment you wrote...A perhaps related case--among others--, can you guess who wrote the following? (p. 359):
"There is, unfortunately, no evidence at all, either in the scrolls or in any other literature, that Herod the Great favored the Essenes..."
Methinks anyone taking Josephus at face value is in danger of derailing any search for early christian origins....words, after all, bring both 'truth' and 'error' in their wake.....[But Josephus, Antiquities 15 (4-5) 365-379 explains precisely that Herod favored Essenes, and why (reportedly) he did, based on his interaction with Menahem the Essene.]
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
W.B. Yeats
W.B. Yeats
Re: Top suspects that could have invented the historical Jes
Ulan wrote:I'm sure the comment was about the "core of the context" in which the term "mythicism" is used, not about the meat of the matter.MrMacSon wrote:What core??!outhouse wrote: ... I think anyone in any amount of academic study on Jesus historicity gets the jest of the appointed label in the core of its context.
There are no criteria that meet suitable criteria for evidence for the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth - the only information is the books of the NT, and there is no mention of any of them as named-books until the latter half of the 2nd century.
Jesus of Nazareth is as 'real' as Harry Potter.
Correct sir.
Re: Top suspects that could have invented the historical Jes
Isayre wrote:
"How about the Roman government? Could it have fabricated the NT Jesus stories? Is Paul a Herodion?"
This is something Eisenman proposes as part of his larger theory of Christian origins that I think makes sense of some things in Paul's letters. I'm getting too old to sort through Eisenman's plate spinning these days, but in a nut shell he defines "Herodian" this way:
"By 'Herodian' we mean a religio-political orientation not inimical to the aims of the Herodian family, not only in Palestine, but also in Asia Minor and even Rome, and possibly implying a genealogical connection as well. Examples of the effect of such an orientation ... would be the curious thematic repetitions portraying a Jewish Messiah desiring fellowship with 'Sinners' (for Paul in Gal 2:l5, 'Gentiles'), 'publicans' ... 'prostitutes' (in our view a euphemism for 'fornicators' as per Jamesian/Qumran definition ...), and 'tax-collectors' (persons fitting comfortably into the political philosophy enunciated by Paul in Rom 13) ...."
http://www.depts.drew.edu/jhc/eisenman.html
An indication that Paul may have been involved in higher circles than is generally thought is his reference to someone named Epaphroditus ("my brother, co-worker and fellow soldier, who is also your messenger, whom you sent to take care of my needs" in Php. 2:25). If this was Nero's secretary of the same name then it puts Php. 4:22 in a different light ("All the saints greet you, especially those of Caesar’s household"). Paul mentions Epaphroditus again in 4:18 right before he gives this greeting ("I have received full payment and have more than enough. I am amply supplied, now that I have received from Epaphroditus the gifts you sent. They are a fragrant offering, an acceptable sacrifice, pleasing to God").
Even if Paul's reference to "those of Caesar's household" means slaves or freedmen as is generally thought, this is what Nero's secretary Epaphroditus was (and is implied by his name).
As Wikipedia puts it, "His name originates from the Greek language and means "lovely, charming" combined with the name Aphrodite ... The Romans often gave slaves of Greek origins illustrious names from Greek mythology and culture, for example Claudius's freedman Narcissus, Nero's freedman Polyclitus and Antonia Minor's freedwoman Caenis."
And:
"We do not know for certain who Epaphroditus' master was, but it is likely that he was freed by the Emperor Claudius (41-54). Because freedmen usually accepted the name of their former master, as an Imperial freedman, the official name of Epaphroditus was Tiberius Claudius Epaphroditus, to which Augusti libertus ("freedman of the emperor") could be added. Epaphroditus was an Imperial freedman and secretary (Latin: a libellis), which means that he drafted the Emperor Nero's replies to petitions. He is mentioned as apparitor Caesarum, which means that he was some sort of servant of the Imperial Family ..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epaphroditos
So if this is only a coincidence, then there were two literate and monied people associated in some capacity with Caesar's household at the same time named Epaphroditus and Paul knew one of them.
"How about the Roman government? Could it have fabricated the NT Jesus stories? Is Paul a Herodion?"
This is something Eisenman proposes as part of his larger theory of Christian origins that I think makes sense of some things in Paul's letters. I'm getting too old to sort through Eisenman's plate spinning these days, but in a nut shell he defines "Herodian" this way:
"By 'Herodian' we mean a religio-political orientation not inimical to the aims of the Herodian family, not only in Palestine, but also in Asia Minor and even Rome, and possibly implying a genealogical connection as well. Examples of the effect of such an orientation ... would be the curious thematic repetitions portraying a Jewish Messiah desiring fellowship with 'Sinners' (for Paul in Gal 2:l5, 'Gentiles'), 'publicans' ... 'prostitutes' (in our view a euphemism for 'fornicators' as per Jamesian/Qumran definition ...), and 'tax-collectors' (persons fitting comfortably into the political philosophy enunciated by Paul in Rom 13) ...."
http://www.depts.drew.edu/jhc/eisenman.html
An indication that Paul may have been involved in higher circles than is generally thought is his reference to someone named Epaphroditus ("my brother, co-worker and fellow soldier, who is also your messenger, whom you sent to take care of my needs" in Php. 2:25). If this was Nero's secretary of the same name then it puts Php. 4:22 in a different light ("All the saints greet you, especially those of Caesar’s household"). Paul mentions Epaphroditus again in 4:18 right before he gives this greeting ("I have received full payment and have more than enough. I am amply supplied, now that I have received from Epaphroditus the gifts you sent. They are a fragrant offering, an acceptable sacrifice, pleasing to God").
Even if Paul's reference to "those of Caesar's household" means slaves or freedmen as is generally thought, this is what Nero's secretary Epaphroditus was (and is implied by his name).
As Wikipedia puts it, "His name originates from the Greek language and means "lovely, charming" combined with the name Aphrodite ... The Romans often gave slaves of Greek origins illustrious names from Greek mythology and culture, for example Claudius's freedman Narcissus, Nero's freedman Polyclitus and Antonia Minor's freedwoman Caenis."
And:
"We do not know for certain who Epaphroditus' master was, but it is likely that he was freed by the Emperor Claudius (41-54). Because freedmen usually accepted the name of their former master, as an Imperial freedman, the official name of Epaphroditus was Tiberius Claudius Epaphroditus, to which Augusti libertus ("freedman of the emperor") could be added. Epaphroditus was an Imperial freedman and secretary (Latin: a libellis), which means that he drafted the Emperor Nero's replies to petitions. He is mentioned as apparitor Caesarum, which means that he was some sort of servant of the Imperial Family ..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epaphroditos
So if this is only a coincidence, then there were two literate and monied people associated in some capacity with Caesar's household at the same time named Epaphroditus and Paul knew one of them.
Last edited by John2 on Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
Re: Top suspects that could have invented the historical Jes
And while there is discussion on whether or not the Epaphroditus in Paul was also Nero's secretary and Josephus' patron, Mason sees the similarity between the latter and Paul's companion on pg. 191 of Josephus and the New Testament, "This man [Josephus' patron] was not part of the old Roman aristocracy, however. His name appears commonly among 'freedmen' -former slaves who often had the opportunity to rise dramatically with the help of former masters (cf. the Epaphroditus who visited Paul, Phil. 2:25-30)."
If one were to argue against the idea that this was one person by asking how could one person have been associated with Nero, Josephus and Paul, Jospehus says he was "a man who is a lover of all kind of learning, but is principally delighted with the knowledge of history, and this on account of his having been himself concerned in great affairs, and many turns of fortune" and (in Mason's translation) was "an enthusiastic supporter of persons with the ability to produce some useful or beautiful work" (Ant. Preface 1.2).
If one were to argue against the idea that this was one person by asking how could one person have been associated with Nero, Josephus and Paul, Jospehus says he was "a man who is a lover of all kind of learning, but is principally delighted with the knowledge of history, and this on account of his having been himself concerned in great affairs, and many turns of fortune" and (in Mason's translation) was "an enthusiastic supporter of persons with the ability to produce some useful or beautiful work" (Ant. Preface 1.2).
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
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Secret Alias
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Re: Top suspects that could have invented the historical Jes
It's all a lie. Come on. Isn't it funny the way the same names keep recycling in early Christian sources (which Josephus as we have it now is)? Look at Onesimus in Paul and Ignatius. It's like the whole world comes down to 12 people.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Re: Top suspects that could have invented the historical Jes
Then there are Paul's greetings to Aristobulus, "my kinsman Herodion" and Narcissus in Rom. 16:10-11:
"Greet those who belong to the household of Aristobulus. Greet my kinsman Herodion. Greet those in the Lord who belong to the family of Narcissus."
http://biblehub.com/romans/16-10.htm
http://biblehub.com/romans/16-11.htm
Watson notes on pg. 186 that this Aristobulus is "often identified" with the Herodians and that the one who was married to Salome had a son named Herod during Paul's time.
https://books.google.com/books?id=4PfFg ... me&f=false
And den Hollander notes on page 275 that it is argued that this son "is also the 'Herodion' within the household of Aristobulus to whom Paul directs greetings in Rom. 16:10-11."
https://books.google.com/books?id=TPjYA ... me&f=false
The word Paul uses for "kinsman" can have the sense of family (http://biblehub.com/greek/4773.htm), and a commentator on 16:11 on the Biblehub notes how the name Herodion "seems to be a derivative of Herod."
And regarding Paul's reference to Narcissus, another commentator notes, "This Narcissus may possibly have been the powerful freedman of Claudius, mentioned by Tacitus, 'Ann.,' 11:29, seq.; 12:57; and by Suetonius, 'Claud.,' 28. The fact that he appears from 'Ann.,' 13:1, to have been put to death on the accession of Nero, A.D. 54, is not inconsistent with the supposition. For his human chattels would be likely to pass into the possession of Nero, and so become part of Caeasar's household, and might still be called by their late master's name. This may also have been the case with the household of Aristobulus above referred to. It is observable that, at a later period, the apostle, writing from Rome to the Philippians, sends special greetings from them 'that are of Caesar's household.'"
And another adds that he was an imperial secretary like Epaphroditus:
"...some have thought, that this Narcissus is the same man that Suetonius and other writers speak of who was secretary to Claudius Caesar; a very great favourite of his, who amassed a great deal of wealth under him, and was raised to great honour and dignity by him."
"Greet those who belong to the household of Aristobulus. Greet my kinsman Herodion. Greet those in the Lord who belong to the family of Narcissus."
http://biblehub.com/romans/16-10.htm
http://biblehub.com/romans/16-11.htm
Watson notes on pg. 186 that this Aristobulus is "often identified" with the Herodians and that the one who was married to Salome had a son named Herod during Paul's time.
https://books.google.com/books?id=4PfFg ... me&f=false
And den Hollander notes on page 275 that it is argued that this son "is also the 'Herodion' within the household of Aristobulus to whom Paul directs greetings in Rom. 16:10-11."
https://books.google.com/books?id=TPjYA ... me&f=false
The word Paul uses for "kinsman" can have the sense of family (http://biblehub.com/greek/4773.htm), and a commentator on 16:11 on the Biblehub notes how the name Herodion "seems to be a derivative of Herod."
And regarding Paul's reference to Narcissus, another commentator notes, "This Narcissus may possibly have been the powerful freedman of Claudius, mentioned by Tacitus, 'Ann.,' 11:29, seq.; 12:57; and by Suetonius, 'Claud.,' 28. The fact that he appears from 'Ann.,' 13:1, to have been put to death on the accession of Nero, A.D. 54, is not inconsistent with the supposition. For his human chattels would be likely to pass into the possession of Nero, and so become part of Caeasar's household, and might still be called by their late master's name. This may also have been the case with the household of Aristobulus above referred to. It is observable that, at a later period, the apostle, writing from Rome to the Philippians, sends special greetings from them 'that are of Caesar's household.'"
And another adds that he was an imperial secretary like Epaphroditus:
"...some have thought, that this Narcissus is the same man that Suetonius and other writers speak of who was secretary to Claudius Caesar; a very great favourite of his, who amassed a great deal of wealth under him, and was raised to great honour and dignity by him."
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
Re: Top suspects that could have invented the historical Jes
And for what it's worth, Acts 13:1 mentions a Herodian in the Antioch Church:
"Now there were at Antioch, in the church that was there, prophets and teachers: Barnabas, and Simeon who was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul."
"Now there were at Antioch, in the church that was there, prophets and teachers: Barnabas, and Simeon who was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul."
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
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Charles Wilson
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Re: Top suspects that could have invented the historical Jes
John2-John2 wrote:Then there are Paul's greetings to Aristobulus, "my kinsman Herodion" and Narcissus in Rom. 16:10-11:
"Greet those who belong to the household of Aristobulus. Greet my kinsman Herodion. Greet those in the Lord who belong to the family of Narcissus."
AHM Jones, Herods of Judaea, tells of the Greek Court ordered in the following manner: "Friends", "Honored Friends", "Guards of the Realm" and the highest ranking, "Kinsmen". Herod ordered his Court by this Classification System (Josephus, quote on request...) and it may be a Key to understanding "The Banquet", where you should sit at the Lowest End until you are "Honored by your Friends" as you move higher. When you see "Kinsman", it is noting a relation of Social Hierarchy, not "Family".
CW