Which is older, the Christ cult or the Jesus cult?
Which is older, the Christ cult or the Jesus cult?
Can anyone speculate?
Re: Which is older, the Christ cult or the Jesus cult?
I think: the Christ cult. I think it was 'assumed' by the Jesus cult.
Re: Which is older, the Christ cult or the Jesus cult?
Should the "Son of man" cult be separated from the Christ cult and the Jesus cult? And does it come first?
Re: Which is older, the Christ cult or the Jesus cult?
I guess that depends on what is meant by "Jesus cult" and "Christ cult".MrMacSon wrote:I think: the Christ cult. I think it was 'assumed' by the Jesus cult.
Jesus was apparently charismatic enough to collect an entourage of disciples who were willing to do whatever their teacher requested. In today's nomenclature this could describe a "cult" environment, if the requests were more extreme than norms dictated, where one leader spellbinds listeners and exerts unusual social control over his followers.
Classically, the English word "cult" comes from Latin "cultus", which refers to ritual observances specific to certain deities. Now the "Christology" of the NT books might (generally the "higher" it is the better this applies) apply to a being venerated as a kind of deity, and thus the veneration itself could be described as a "cultus". I think that among some of those followers Jesus came to be regarded as a deity who performed a mystery, a mystery which was venerated in ritual.
I'd speculate as more likely that a) there was a real-life Jesus (whether or not he was a "cult" leader in the modern understanding) who in time became venerated as a deity, rather than b) a venerated deity that was transformed into a quasi-human being over time. The social psychology that would be required is much simpler in the former case than with the latter, but that is my humble opinion.
DCH
Re: Which is older, the Christ cult or the Jesus cult?
I don't think there was a "son of man" cult, although I am not sure what you meant by that phrase.lsayre wrote:Should the "Son of man" cult be separated from the Christ cult and the Jesus cult? And does it come first?
The only thing that comes to mind is the Parables of Enoch, which speak of "that son of man" as an exalted being who will execute judgment on the powerful/wealthy/sinners in the time of God's final judgment of mankind. But whether that involves a pre-existent being who was venerated as a divine entity is subject to question.
Some would attribute this book to Christian authorship or their beliefs about Jesus Christ at least influenced the account.
Others think this figure was actually meant to refer to Enoch himself, an everyday kind of advocate who argued cases before God the king, a "regular guy", who will be honored by this assignment to clean up mankind of evil and oppression.
I thought of an alternative not so long ago, that it was originally written as propaganda put out by Simon G'iora, one of the rebel leaders of the Judean rebellion of 66-74 CE, who advocated an extreme form of social change that would abolish then-existent power relationships. "Son of man" was just one of his "nicknames", and meant "that regular guy" (as in, "I could be you, so support me, and I will look out for you too"). He was not claiming divinity, or pre-existence, but he was claiming that God was on his side and highly approved of his social agenda, even so far as considering Simon to be his specially beloved representative on earth.
DCH
Re: Which is older, the Christ cult or the Jesus cult?
It seems that Jesus makes mention of the "Son of Man" as someone other than himself.
Example:
Example:
Luke 12:8“And I tell you, everyone who acknowledges me before men, the Son of Man also will acknowledge before the angels of God,"
Re: Which is older, the Christ cult or the Jesus cult?
earlydude wrote:Can anyone speculate?
Two errors.Which is older, the Christ cult or the Jesus cult?
These were not cults. This was simply a new Hellenistic form of what used to be Aramaic Galilean apocalyptic Judaism, during the first century.
Second, you cannot substantiate two different groups. Your OP is a fallacy.
Re: Which is older, the Christ cult or the Jesus cult?
lsayre wrote:It seems that Jesus makes mention of the "Son of Man" as someone other than himself.
You do understand we have multiple aspects of Christology here that evolved ?
You could look at the eschatology involved to answer your questions.
Re: Which is older, the Christ cult or the Jesus cult?
I suppose it could mean nothing more than that Jesus was expecting a human messiah to usher in the kingdom of God. "Son of man" in Aramaic means essentially "human being".lsayre wrote:It seems that Jesus makes mention of the "Son of Man" as someone other than himself.
Example:Luke 12:8“And I tell you, everyone who acknowledges me before men, the Son of Man also will acknowledge before the angels of God,"
Re: Which is older, the Christ cult or the Jesus cult?
Don't you suspect a Plagiarized OT context here as apposed to Aramaic transliteration? or both?DCHindley wrote: "Son of man" in Aramaic means essentially "human being".