Reconsidering the date of the Martyrdom of Polycarp

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Peter Kirby
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Reconsidering the date of the Martyrdom of Polycarp

Post by Peter Kirby »

Got an essay up considering, pace Lightfoot, that the Letter of the Smyrnaeans (Mart. Poly.) that came from a larger "Pionian" author of a Life of Polycarp originally belonged there, which would place the text in the third century.

http://peterkirby.com/martyrdom-polycar ... ntury.html

Apparently Neil Godfrey and Candida Moss agree:

http://vridar.org/2013/11/13/the-late-i ... martyrdom/

Stephan Huller... how does this affect / shed light on your ideas about Polycarp?
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arnoldo
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Re: Reconsidering the date of the Martyrdom of Polycarp

Post by arnoldo »

Such a late date for Polycarp would increase the possibility that the “false brethern” Polycarp references in his letter to the Philipians is Marcion.

. . . abstaining from offenses and from the false brethren and from them that bear the name of the Lord in hypocrisy, who lead foolish men astray. For every one who shall not confess that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, is antichrist: and whosoever shall not confess the testimony of the Cross, is of the devil; and whosoever shall pervert the oracles of the Lord to his own lusts and say that there is neither resurrection nor judgment, that man is the firstborn of Satan.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... tfoot.html
To further strengthen the claim that Polycarp was referring to Marcion notice Irenaeus Adv. Haer., III.3.4 cited below;
And Polycarp himself replied to Marcion, who met him on one occasion, and said, "Dost thou know me? "I do know thee, the first-born of Satan." Such was the horror which the apostles and their disciples had against holding even verbal communication with any corrupters of the truth; as Paul also says, "A man that is an heretic, after the first and second admonition, reject; knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself." There is also a very powerful Epistle of Polycarp written to the Philippians, from which those who choose to do so, and are anxious about their salvation, can learn the character of his faith, and the preaching of the truth
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/polycarp.html
However, a remarkable counter-argument for a late date for Polycarp is that Polycarp's letter to the Philippians is for some parts Marcionite in nature in it's early stage of development!

Polycarp and Marcion
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Reconsidering the date of the Martyrdom of Polycarp

Post by Peter Kirby »

arnoldo wrote:Such a late date for Polycarp ...

However, a remarkable counter-argument for a late date for Polycarp is that Polycarp's letter to the Philippians is for some parts Marcionite in nature in it's early stage of development!
It's not really clear to me what you're talking about with the phrase "a late date for Polycarp."

It's possible that the essay I wrote is misunderstood. The essay reconsidered the dating of the "Letter of the Smyrnaeans" i.e. the "Martyrdom of Polycarp," a text quoted by Eusebius and present in a few mss. The question arose specifically from the internal evidence that this text is connected with Pionius and also another text called the "Life of Polycarp," which would make it a third century text.

This has nothing to do (not directly) with the text known as "Polycarp to the Philippians" or date of the martyrdom of Polycarp (little-m).

Tangent (forgive me): Any references to "early"/"late" dating really grate on me. Unintentionally they are powerful ways of legitimizing the range of dating that is inbetween the allegedly "early" and "late" dating. The terms can't really be value-free, as someone must decide how late is too late so as to be "late" and so on, and they have a tendency thus to reinforce opinion without offering evidence of it. Whenever possible I'd prefer phrases such as "X century date" or "date in the period of Y to Z," etc. What's good for the goose is good for the gander too, as the "early" date language is just as prejudicial.
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arnoldo
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Re: Reconsidering the date of the Martyrdom of Polycarp

Post by arnoldo »

Another hypothesis is that the composition of the Martyrdom of Polycarp in the third century was based on an earlier (2nd century?) source. As per Candida R. Moss it remains “possible, perhaps even probable that the author [of the Martyrdom of Polycarp] possessed some form of literary material as a source.”

Polycarp's Epistle to the Philippians and the Martyrdom of Polycarp
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Re: Reconsidering the date of the Martyrdom of Polycarp

Post by Peter Kirby »

Anything's possible, as they say.
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Re: Reconsidering the date of the Martyrdom of Polycarp

Post by andrewcriddle »

The text of the surviving manuscripts of the Martyrdom has significant differences from the text quoted by Eusebius,

I tend to regard the archetype behind both traditions as going back to the 2nd century. One problem is that important parts of the Martyrdom such as the dating information (who was proconsul etc) has no parallel in Eusebius. It is not certain whether this was part of the original 2nd century text.

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Re: Reconsidering the date of the Martyrdom of Polycarp

Post by Peter Kirby »

Or whether there was an original 2nd century text.
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Re: Reconsidering the date of the Martyrdom of Polycarp

Post by andrewcriddle »

Peter Kirby wrote:Or whether there was an original 2nd century text.
One reason I think there probably was a 2nd century work is that Lucian in his account of Peregrinus Proteus seems to be influenced by it. (Those who think Pergrinus Proteus was Polycarp will obviously interpret the apparent allusions very differently.)

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Re: Reconsidering the date of the Martyrdom of Polycarp

Post by Peter Kirby »

andrewcriddle wrote:
Peter Kirby wrote:Or whether there was an original 2nd century text.
One reason I think there probably was a 2nd century work is that Lucian in his account of Peregrinus Proteus seems to be influenced by it. (Those who think Pergrinus Proteus was Polycarp will obviously interpret the apparent allusions very differently.)

Andrew Criddle
That may be the best argument for it, actually, yes.

My essay, if it weren't clear or if I overstepped its rightful purpose, should be regarded more in the spirit of pointing out a largely unacknowledged ambiguity in our evidence, rather than attempting to close the discussion (once again) in another direction.

Certainly I wouldn't mind if I went back to my opinion last month on its dating.

cheers,
Peter Kirby
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Re: Reconsidering the date of the Martyrdom of Polycarp

Post by stephan happy huller »

At least Andrew thinks there are parallels. That always helps convince me I am not completely nuts (I would settle for partially deluded). Nevertheless I would be interested in hearing what other parallels people have noted besides those I've mentioned.
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